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Susan Yao is an educator, school founder, and advocate of self-directed learning. She previously served as Middle School Head at Friends Academy in Dartmouth, Massachusetts, following more than a decade of teaching. She co-founded the Vermont Village School, a community-based microschool emphasising student-led learning, autonomy, and community engagement.
The episode connects her parents’ years in China’s school closures with her own path through American schooling and into the early stages of unschooling. The conversation outlines her family’s approach to dyslexia, late reading, and open learning rhythms.
🗓️ Recorded November 6, 2025. 📍 Tarragona, Spain
🔗 links
- https://susyao.substack.com/
- https://www.vermontvillageschool.org/
- https://www.lionsroar.com/author/susan-yao/
- The Math Myth by Andrew Hacker: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1620970686/
After-note on School Closures in China
During China’s Cultural Revolution, many schools were closed or severely disrupted for several years, beginning in 1966 and continuing through the early 1970s. The closures followed efforts to dismantle academic hierarchies and redirect youth toward political campaigns.
More information here
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Autogenerated Transcript
[00:00:00] Jesper Conrad: Today we are together with Susan Yao and [00:00:03] I found her on Substack, on Her [00:00:06] Substack. I think you came recommended by [00:00:09] Missy Willis. Let him go barefoot, who we [00:00:12] actually had on right before this , episode. , [00:00:15] So Susan, good to meet you.
[00:00:17] Susan Yao: [00:00:18] Thank you so much for having me. Nice to meet you [00:00:21] too.
[00:00:21] Jesper Conrad: I, would like to start by [00:00:24] asking, what is your background?
[00:00:25] Jesper Conrad: How did you end up [00:00:27] in the whole radical [00:00:30] education, homeschooling, [00:00:33] unschooling world? What happened in your [00:00:36] life?
[00:00:36] Susan Yao: Well, it's funny, my parents were [00:00:39] unintentionally unschooling, but I didn't know that until I [00:00:42] was on this journey. And so they grew up in China during [00:00:45] the cultural revolution, and schools were closed for a few [00:00:48] years.
[00:00:48] Susan Yao: And so everybody, it was like a [00:00:51] national unschooling experiment, not [00:00:54] really on purpose. That's just, um. So it's just funny [00:00:57] to think about that. I went to [00:01:00] traditional public schools in the United States, [00:01:03] Ohio, Kentucky, Illinois, Massachusetts. [00:01:06] And you know, I was always on a college [00:01:09] trek of, you know, I was supposed to get good [00:01:12] grades or take honors classes and stay [00:01:15] on a traditional path.
[00:01:16] Susan Yao: And, [00:01:18] um, I would say as a [00:01:21] student, my first. Self-directed project [00:01:24] was in high school. As a teenager I [00:01:27] started to feel like there are more important things than [00:01:30] getting good grades in school. And [00:01:33] it's dangerous, it's a dangerous thought, right?
[00:01:35] Cecilie Conrad: Go there, [00:01:36] you know, there's
[00:01:36] Susan Yao: no turning,
[00:01:37] Cecilie Conrad: taking the little [00:01:39] pill.
[00:01:39] Susan Yao: Hmm. Specifically, I, I cared a lot about [00:01:42] racism and that's what I wanted to spend my time on. I [00:01:45] was good at school, but I was not excited by my [00:01:48] classes. And so I dropped [00:01:51] science. And many students don't even know that you [00:01:54] can do that. You don't have to take. All the [00:01:57] subjects that you are supposed to take in school.
[00:01:59] Susan Yao: [00:02:00] So I had more free time to make a [00:02:03] documentary and I interviewed teachers and students [00:02:06] and that was a very meaningful project for [00:02:09] me as a student. And there was no credit, no [00:02:12] grade. The school did lend me a camera and [00:02:15] some editing equipment. Um, so they were [00:02:18] supportive in that way. Um, but that was my first [00:02:21] real taste of self-directed learning for myself.[00:02:24]
[00:02:24] Susan Yao: And eventually I [00:02:27] became a classroom teacher. I started out in a charter [00:02:30] school and, , I was in progressive private [00:02:33] schools and I became a [00:02:36] parent. And my husband and I, we had always been interested in [00:02:39] unschooling and homeschooling and I [00:02:42] couldn't really tell you why. Just that we had talked to other [00:02:45] people about it.
[00:02:46] Susan Yao: And so as we became [00:02:48] parents, it was always in the back of our mind. [00:02:51] Um, and we found this amazing Reggie Amelia [00:02:54] Forest preschool for the kids. And so we were [00:02:57] very happy to have them there while I [00:03:00] was working in the middle school of the same [00:03:03] school. And then it [00:03:06] was once our older child [00:03:09] hit kindergarten school, started to look more [00:03:12] traditional and we started to have questions.
[00:03:14] Susan Yao: And [00:03:15] for example, he was very afraid of making the [00:03:18] teacher angry. Even when he was at home outside of [00:03:21] school, he would be afraid. Of angering the [00:03:24] teacher to the point where sometimes he wouldn't follow my [00:03:27] directions because the teacher's authority was somehow [00:03:30] stronger or that fear was stronger. And also [00:03:33] seeing how he was as a learner.
[00:03:35] Susan Yao: He started to read [00:03:36] on his own at H four and, [00:03:39] um. I just thought school might [00:03:42] become too limiting for him [00:03:45] because he's always had very strong interests. [00:03:48] And he likes to have the time and space to follow his [00:03:51] own interests, do his own projects. And so we [00:03:54] started coming back to this idea of unschooling [00:03:57] and then COVID is what really pushed us, [00:04:00]
[00:04:00] Jesper Conrad: opened the
[00:04:00] Susan Yao: door to go for it.
[00:04:02] Susan Yao: Right. I mean, [00:04:03] it forced everybody to try [00:04:06] homeschooling and we had already been open to the [00:04:09] idea and we just found that it [00:04:12] worked well for us as a family. Um, [00:04:15] and I left working in a school full-time. Yeah. [00:04:18]
[00:04:18] Jesper Conrad: Susan, I need to go a little back [00:04:21] because as Westerner as I am [00:04:24] grown up in Denmark, I'm totally ignorant of [00:04:27] a lot of Chinese history.
[00:04:28] Jesper Conrad: The school were [00:04:30] closed in a period.
[00:04:32] Susan Yao: Isn't that [00:04:33] interesting? And I don't I'm no expert on Chinese
[00:04:35] Jesper Conrad: [00:04:36] history. History. They didn't listen in history, but I never caught on for [00:04:39] that to that earlier.
[00:04:40] Susan Yao: Isn't that interesting that an [00:04:42] entire country underwent this social [00:04:45] experiment? And I don't know if there are books about [00:04:48] schooling in particular.
[00:04:49] Susan Yao: The thinking [00:04:51] was you know, during the era of Mao and [00:04:54] Communism and the Little Red book that [00:04:57] schooling promotes elitism and [00:05:00] is one source of the problem. So let's close 'em [00:05:03] all.
[00:05:03] Jesper Conrad: How many years did
[00:05:04] Susan Yao: it go on? So it was, I think [00:05:06] infrastructure, you know, it was also chaotic [00:05:09] and that was also a reason.
[00:05:10] Susan Yao: But [00:05:12] schools, teachers, administrators, they were seen [00:05:15] as the enemies for a period of [00:05:18] time.
[00:05:18] Jesper Conrad: And,
[00:05:18] Cecilie Conrad: but there's the recall system [00:05:21] and it wasn't align with the ideas. It like [00:05:24] actually makes sense to close them. [00:05:27] Yeah.
[00:05:27] Jesper Conrad: Yeah. Even it's a little wild
[00:05:28] Cecilie Conrad: decision to, I wonder, I mean, we all have [00:05:30] to run now to our computers and look up if anyone [00:05:33] did any good studies on that.
[00:05:34] Jesper Conrad: Yeah,
[00:05:34] Susan Yao: maybe. [00:05:36] Yeah. I only have bits and pieces from my [00:05:39] parents. Um, I haven't looked into it, but I [00:05:42] am very curious about everybody else who. [00:05:45] Never mentions that they did not go to elementary [00:05:48] school.
[00:05:49] Cecilie Conrad: Oh, that's interesting.
[00:05:49] Susan Yao: Um, my parents are in their [00:05:51] sixties, so, you know, anybody around that [00:05:54] age maybe didn't go to elementary school or didn't [00:05:57] go to college.
[00:05:58] Susan Yao: Um, my father did [00:06:00] go to college because they had just reopened [00:06:03] college. Yeah. And now China has a pretty traditional school [00:06:06] system, so that's interesting to me too, that. [00:06:09] After closing all the schools, they went in this [00:06:12] very traditional direction, focused on test [00:06:15] taking and scores.
[00:06:16] Cecilie Conrad: It's, [00:06:18] as I understand it, not that I'm an expert, it's a very [00:06:21] elitist school system.
[00:06:23] Cecilie Conrad: The Chinese, [00:06:24] why not? It's,
[00:06:24] Susan Yao: I think they would say it's democratic in [00:06:27] that any child with a high enough score can [00:06:30] go to college. Yeah. And, and, [00:06:33] but the scoring
[00:06:33] Cecilie Conrad: itself,
[00:06:34] Susan Yao: so maybe that's the logic behind [00:06:36] the test system, but the actual result is [00:06:39] that, you know, children are [00:06:42] doing whatever extra tutoring they can and trying to memorize [00:06:45] as much as they can.
[00:06:46] Susan Yao: And it looks very traditional. [00:06:48]
[00:06:48] Jesper Conrad: Yeah. How is, [00:06:51] how is your experience starting with [00:06:54] taking your kids home? Retaking the [00:06:57] responsibility of your child [00:07:00] in what it will learn and not learn. How did that [00:07:03] feel? Was it terrifying?
[00:07:05] Susan Yao: Yes, [00:07:06] it was. It has really been a [00:07:09] journey up and down. And I know you've talked to some of your [00:07:12] other you know, the other unschooling parents about this.[00:07:15]
[00:07:15] Susan Yao: It really is emotional when [00:07:18] the, I think the kids were. [00:07:21] Maybe five and seven when we started [00:07:24] unschooling. And so when they're young, [00:07:27] nobody is too worried in the beginning, you know, [00:07:30] if reading, like I said, with my older child, he was [00:07:33] picking up reading on his own and, [00:07:36] he, he is a poster child for unschooling in some way.
[00:07:38] Susan Yao: [00:07:39] If, if you're coming from a schoolish background because [00:07:42] he'll just spontaneously say, I'm gonna write an essay about black [00:07:45] holes. And that's just what he naturally wants to do. [00:07:48] But, you know, obviously unschooling can go [00:07:51] so many different directions. Um, the goal is [00:07:54] not to go in a schoolish [00:07:57] direction necessarily.
[00:07:58] Susan Yao: But, uh. [00:08:00] It was, let's see, we were [00:08:03] homesteading at the time, so that felt very [00:08:06] right. The kids were learning to take care of animals and grow [00:08:09] vegetables and being outdoors was safer [00:08:12] anyways, during COVID, we would go on hikes a lot. And [00:08:15] so I think the early years. [00:08:18] Were great. And where I started [00:08:21] to worry is as they get older my younger [00:08:24] child has dyslexia and [00:08:27] so my main worry is not so much.[00:08:30]
[00:08:30] Susan Yao: I've heard so many stories of people who read [00:08:33] as teenagers and they are successful [00:08:36] adults. For me, I was worried that I was [00:08:39] not enough. That I could not [00:08:42] teach a dyslexic child how to read. Even [00:08:45] being an experienced classroom teacher, I was always middle [00:08:48] school, so I didn't know what early [00:08:51] literacy looked like or how I could support [00:08:54] her.
[00:08:54] Susan Yao: We met with a tutor and I [00:08:57] mainly wanted her to know that tutoring is an option [00:09:00] because you might need a reading teacher who's [00:09:03] an expert in dyslexia. So, we [00:09:06] met, there was, you know, as an informal meeting and [00:09:09] just getting to know her abilities. And, [00:09:12] um, meeting with that [00:09:15] tutor helped put me at ease because we had this [00:09:18] narrative that if.
[00:09:19] Susan Yao: We had kept our [00:09:21] child in school, she would have been reading already.
[00:09:23] Cecilie Conrad: Oh yeah.
[00:09:23] Susan Yao: [00:09:24] And the tutor said, probably [00:09:27] not. She has dyslexia, you know, very classic [00:09:30] profile. And were holding onto [00:09:33] the story that if you go to school, you learn the [00:09:36] skills you need. And if you're at home, [00:09:39] maybe you won't get what you need.
[00:09:40] Susan Yao: Maybe your parents are not enough. [00:09:42] And so. Letting [00:09:45] go of that story has been a journey, and I [00:09:48] think it would've been harder for me as a parent [00:09:51] to learn about dyslexia because I've been in those school [00:09:54] meetings where you have, you know, the serious [00:09:57] conference with a parent, I'm worried about your child.
[00:09:59] Susan Yao: They [00:10:00] need extra tutoring, they need testing. And [00:10:03] um, I think I would've resisted that, [00:10:06] but allowing her to [00:10:09] read at her own pace. Find the activities [00:10:12] that work for her. Those have affirmed [00:10:15] the unschooling path for me. For example, [00:10:18] she's a dyslexic child who [00:10:21] is not reading fluently, but can teach a [00:10:24] three-year-old letters, and that is so beautiful.
[00:10:26] Susan Yao: [00:10:27] No school, right? Would send a struggling [00:10:30] reader into a preschool classroom to teach letters, [00:10:33] but it's actually so good for her learning. [00:10:36] Because she needs that extra review and she loves [00:10:39] younger children. She has [00:10:42] pathways like that available as an unschooler. [00:10:45]
[00:10:45] Jesper Conrad: Yeah, sometimes I get sick [00:10:48] and tired of the word unschooling because it, [00:10:51] uh, can hold this connotation [00:10:54] of school is bad and, uh, [00:10:57] learning is bad.
[00:10:58] Jesper Conrad: And, uh, it right. [00:11:00] Education, be, be educated, be [00:11:03] interested is bad. And, and [00:11:06] unfortunately that's the word that has ended on this [00:11:09] philosophy, um, where I like self-directed learning. But [00:11:12] even that doesn't cover fully what it is that [00:11:15] I see unfold in many children, which is this [00:11:18]
[00:11:18] Susan Yao: right
[00:11:18] Jesper Conrad: personal learning journey [00:11:21] that happens when they are ready, that they have [00:11:24] time to.
[00:11:25] Jesper Conrad: Learn in their own [00:11:27] pace and not being judged on being an, [00:11:30] in, being a group that needs to [00:11:33] learn everything at the same time. And [00:11:36] that is one of the joys I see with having them at home and [00:11:39] having this more unschooled, less [00:11:42] curriculum outcome based [00:11:45] focus that , we let them travel in the direction [00:11:48] where and when they're ready it comes.
[00:11:50] Cecilie Conrad: I [00:11:51] feel like we talk way too much about learning. I don't know. [00:11:54] It can just be that [00:11:57] we are explaining to [00:12:00] some imaginary listener what [00:12:03] they're learning when they're not in school, because most people [00:12:06] cannot think out of that box. Fairly [00:12:09] so, because most people are in that box and you don't see a [00:12:12] lot of kids who have never been to school and , you combine the idea of [00:12:15] childhood, of growing from being five to [00:12:18] 15 with school, that school is somewhat needed, but [00:12:21] actually unschooling is about [00:12:24] that. It's not needed, but it's also, [00:12:27] about the fact that it's not about learning. Growing up from [00:12:30] five to 15 is not about learning. We learn all through [00:12:33] life, all humans do. And [00:12:36] unschooling is not about [00:12:39] a different way of learning, it's a different [00:12:42] way of living. Mm-hmm. And it's based on a [00:12:45] different philosophy. It has a different value [00:12:48] system. And the learning it's [00:12:51] so hard to get around it, so we keep talking about it. And I [00:12:54] think we're doing so in this conversation [00:12:57] because we're used to talking a lot about learning [00:13:00] because we're used to defending ourselves, and I just wanted to [00:13:03] say that in many ways, unschooling is [00:13:06] not about what they're learning.
[00:13:07] Cecilie Conrad: That can be such a [00:13:09] provocative statement, but actually the [00:13:12] backbone of it is something else.
[00:13:13] Susan Yao: As humans, we're [00:13:15] hardwired to learn, right? And it's [00:13:18] amazing.
[00:13:18] Susan Yao: We've created institutions where we put children and they [00:13:21] say, oh, I learned nothing today. And they think that learning is only [00:13:24] sitting at a desk with an adult directed [00:13:27] activity. And everything else is not learning, but [00:13:30] we, I think learning is in the background all the [00:13:33] time as humans. So I understand what you're [00:13:36] saying.
[00:13:36] Cecilie Conrad: About lifestyle at the [00:13:39] moment. And some of them are doing more formal education at this point [00:13:42] because they're working to get into university. It's unschool, [00:13:45] teenagers and some of them are not, which is totally fine. [00:13:48] But then they say this, oh, I'm doing nothing. [00:13:51] It's a little bit like you're unschooled.
[00:13:53] Cecilie Conrad: [00:13:54] You're 16, you haven't been doing nothing up to [00:13:57] now, right? You're still not doing nothing. You're [00:14:00] not doing formal schooling, but that doesn't mean that you're [00:14:03] doing nothing. But lots of the [00:14:06] things they do are considered [00:14:09] nothing by the mainstream [00:14:12] way of thinking about childhood. And I think I just, we need [00:14:15] to push back against that idea because it's [00:14:18] not nothing.
[00:14:19] Cecilie Conrad: There's a lot of things happening, a lot [00:14:21] of growing, a lot of tempering of [00:14:24] emotion, a lot of thought experiments, a lot [00:14:27] of contemplating, a lot of observation, a [00:14:30] lot of emotional peace. [00:14:33] Arriving at emotional peace from points of not [00:14:36] having peace, which is a learning journey. [00:14:39] Know a journey, a skill. Actually, that's a [00:14:42] skill that I find in many adults they don't have it, [00:14:45] but mm-hmm.
[00:14:46] Cecilie Conrad: If you have the time to work on that. [00:14:48] As a child and a young person, then you mm-hmm [00:14:51] enter the stage of adult life with a [00:14:54] completely different ability to [00:14:57] cope with whatever. And there's a [00:15:00] lot of whatever happening in adult life. But we, [00:15:03] we hardly have words for these skill. Uh, even I'm [00:15:06] struggling now.
[00:15:06] Cecilie Conrad: I've been talking about unschooling for more than 10 years, and I'm still [00:15:09] struggling talking about these things. Call it [00:15:12] life skills. And it sounds like being able to turn on the washing [00:15:15] machine, that's not what I'm talking about.
[00:15:16] Susan Yao: That's important too. Yeah. [00:15:18]
[00:15:18] Cecilie Conrad: But that you can take that box in [00:15:21] half an hour, then they know how to do that, you [00:15:24] know?
[00:15:24] Cecilie Conrad: Yeah, [00:15:27] yeah.
[00:15:27] Cecilie Conrad: But of course there is the reading [00:15:30] too.
[00:15:30] Jesper Conrad: Yes. Susan, [00:15:33] how old are your children now?
[00:15:35] Susan Yao: They [00:15:36] are nine and 11 years old.
[00:15:38] Cecilie Conrad: Yeah, [00:15:39] it's a different ball.
[00:15:40] Jesper Conrad: It's a fun different [00:15:42] place to be. Ours are soon [00:15:45] 14, 17, and one , is [00:15:48] turning 20
[00:15:48]
[00:15:48] Jesper Conrad: And 26. There [00:15:51] comes at some point this, oh, [00:15:54] what do they want later in life?
[00:15:55] Jesper Conrad: Do they wanna go [00:15:57] into something formal education? Can [00:16:00] they do that?
[00:16:00] Cecilie Conrad: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:01] Jesper Conrad: And it's, um, [00:16:03] quite interesting because [00:16:06] it seems to me that comes this, [00:16:09] wanting to use their brain in a different way [00:16:12] when they get older, where there's a lot of play [00:16:15] energy in the younger years. Then the play [00:16:18] energy for some years turns into a lot of chatting, [00:16:21] talking with their friends, and then at some point [00:16:24] there's this, ah, it wants to be used more to [00:16:27] brain,
[00:16:27] Cecilie Conrad: it wants to be used in a different way.
[00:16:29] Jesper Conrad: [00:16:30] Indeed. But what is your focus [00:16:33] on your journey? You stopped [00:16:36] teaching and now you are stay at home [00:16:39] unschooling, homeschooling mom,
[00:16:41] Susan Yao: we [00:16:42] have a learning community.
[00:16:43] Susan Yao: Wow,
[00:16:43] Jesper Conrad: nice. [00:16:45]
[00:16:45] Susan Yao: So we call it the Vermont Village School. It is [00:16:48] three days a week, and I think of it like structure [00:16:51] for unschoolers. It's a little bit different from a [00:16:54] self-directed center. Some of them are like buffets where [00:16:57] you can work on whatever you want all day. And [00:17:00] so ours is maybe because our group is so small [00:17:03] or that's just the personality of the kids, they [00:17:06] want to do things together.
[00:17:08] Susan Yao: And we found that [00:17:09] at. Age eight. Many unschoolers are [00:17:12] wanting that learning community. And [00:17:15] so we are out in the village, um, you know, we're doing [00:17:18] field trips together or we have people come to us and share [00:17:21] what they know. Next week we're going to a sewing [00:17:24] studio, for example. We volunteer [00:17:27] at, local organizations.
[00:17:28] Susan Yao: So we [00:17:30] have that. And then I still consider myself a [00:17:33] full-time educator, even though it looks very different than it [00:17:36] used to. Um, and it's much healthier for me, [00:17:39] this lifestyle of having this three day [00:17:42] a week learning community. And then I do a [00:17:45] little bit of consulting as well for income. [00:17:48]
[00:17:48] Jesper Conrad: Yeah.
[00:17:49] Jesper Conrad: How did your, um, life [00:17:51] stress change from being full-time work to [00:17:54] work at home Mom? Because it is a [00:17:57] shift, I feel, to go from working in an office [00:18:00] or in, in a place leaving the house every day to [00:18:03] come home.
[00:18:04] Susan Yao: It was [00:18:06] terrifying. I had a structured [00:18:09] schedule pretty much my whole life because school is so many hours.[00:18:12]
[00:18:12] Susan Yao: Per week, and then they assign homework. [00:18:15] So that dictates your time outside of school. [00:18:18] And then I had always worked in a [00:18:21] full-time school, which is, 50 to 70 [00:18:24] hours a week. And it is [00:18:27] all consuming and exhausting. I think many [00:18:30] educators are burning out right now. And so [00:18:33] for me it's, it's liberating, but it takes [00:18:36] time to get over that fear and really enjoy [00:18:39] it.
[00:18:39] Cecilie Conrad: Yeah, the fear. Do you [00:18:42] wanna talk about the fear?
[00:18:44] Jesper Conrad: Yeah. I, I [00:18:45] still find it interesting with the whole fear [00:18:48] of how to fit into life as [00:18:51] an adult that. The fear that comes [00:18:54] with freedom, maybe I would call it. [00:18:57] Um, I remember it when I finished high [00:19:00] school, uh, I was 18 and where some people take [00:19:03] one gap year, I took six.
[00:19:05] Jesper Conrad: But this, [00:19:06] that life is a buffet where you can choose what you [00:19:09] want and figure out which direction you wanna go in. [00:19:12] Right. Then all then it was kind of nice to [00:19:15] get that closed down by just going to work, uh, [00:19:18] every, every day and have weekends and that structure [00:19:21] where you don't need to consider what you want to do with your [00:19:24] life and then
[00:19:24] Jesper Conrad: Freeing up more [00:19:27] mental time. And of course you're [00:19:30] not, um, as a mother at home, there's a [00:19:33] lot of work. That's not what I'm saying. It's, [00:19:36] it is just, uh. And [00:19:39] non-traditional path for many, even though if we look [00:19:42] back, it was the traditional path for most of humanity, [00:19:45] right? So, so to be in a place where [00:19:48] it's like, what do I wanna do today?
[00:19:49] Jesper Conrad: That is a little [00:19:51] scary for me still sometimes.
[00:19:53] Cecilie Conrad: And that's [00:19:54] actually what I talked about before. One of the [00:19:57] skills they get from being unschooled that [00:20:00] they learn during childhood, growing [00:20:03] into the personality that. Of course keep [00:20:06] evolving, but also be the backbone of their life. [00:20:09] They learn to make decisions.
[00:20:11] Cecilie Conrad: They learn to [00:20:12] figure out how do I create a good day for myself? What actually [00:20:15] keeps me happy and, and keeps me on track with [00:20:18] my values? And so they don't [00:20:21] need that external structure to tell [00:20:24] them what to do to be good enough.
[00:20:26] Susan Yao: [00:20:27] Mm-hmm. My college [00:20:30] classmates, many of them were lost because they had been so [00:20:33] focused on getting into college.
[00:20:34] Susan Yao: And then when they [00:20:36] arrived, they didn't have [00:20:39] right that external goal anymore. And so they [00:20:42] would fall apart or find the next [00:20:45] something to climb. So for [00:20:48] many of them it was, um, a corporate job. [00:20:51] And whatever was supposedly the most [00:20:54] popular company or the highest paying [00:20:57] company, and they would just go for that just because [00:21:00] everybody else was choosing that.
[00:21:01] Susan Yao: And so they, [00:21:03] they really did not know how to have their own direction or [00:21:06] organize their own time. And so [00:21:09] that was definitely new for me too when [00:21:12] I, um, left full-time work. [00:21:15]
[00:21:15] Jesper Conrad: I would like to hear about your [00:21:18] documentary on racism. Uh, you did back then. [00:21:21] With the angle that we had [00:21:24] a Chinese immigrant daughter [00:21:27] on the podcast earlier who had written a book called [00:21:30] On Tiger, um, where she [00:21:33] told about that many [00:21:36] Chinese uh, immigrants ended up being really [00:21:39] strict because they wanted their children to [00:21:42] succeed and show that they could succeed in the American [00:21:45] society.
[00:21:46] Jesper Conrad: It seems to me that either you have [00:21:48] had a different upbringing with less [00:21:51] Tigga mom style from your parents [00:21:54] or, and if not, then there must maybe have [00:21:57] been a, how would they have taken you [00:22:00] deciding to unschool and homeschool? I'm like, how did that [00:22:03] go? Right? Know it's three questions. That's three [00:22:06] questions.
[00:22:06] Jesper Conrad: Yes.
[00:22:06] Cecilie Conrad: Very different questions.
[00:22:08] Jesper Conrad: Oh, yes. [00:22:09]
[00:22:09] Susan Yao: I'll try to answer them all. [00:22:12] I am. [00:22:15] Wary of describing, [00:22:18] huge groups of people as all parenting one way. I [00:22:21] don't think that's true. I'm sure there are [00:22:24] some trends, but it's complicated. [00:22:27] Right? So the trend is a mix of, [00:22:30] you know, is it Chinese culture? Is it.[00:22:33]
[00:22:33] Susan Yao: Immigrants, is it this generation [00:22:36] trauma that our parents went through? [00:22:39] Um, is it racism in the United States pushing you in [00:22:42] a certain direction? You know, I think [00:22:45] many factors make a trend. So, I would say my [00:22:48] parents, no, they're not tiger parents. So much of it [00:22:51] came from me and they were certainly happy that I [00:22:54] wanted to go to college and be on a [00:22:57] traditional path.
[00:22:57] Susan Yao: But unschooling definitely made [00:23:00] them nervous. And like I said, when the kids were [00:23:03] young, when they're preschool age, nobody is [00:23:06] too worried. But as they get older you know, and [00:23:09] noticing the, you [00:23:12] know, the like late reader was definitely [00:23:15] one cause for concern. But [00:23:18] I think for the most part [00:23:21] they're supportive [00:23:24] or you know, they might have [00:23:27] fears, but they're not constantly arguing with us. I've heard some [00:23:30] real horror stories from people who [00:23:33] homeschool or unschool where they have conflict, you know, a lot of [00:23:36] conflict with their family. So we've been lucky in that.
[00:23:38] Susan Yao: We haven't [00:23:39] had much of that, but there is definitely [00:23:42] some worry. That we try to [00:23:45] keep at bay.
[00:23:46] Susan Yao: And I honestly [00:23:48] think, grandparents might worry no matter what. Right. Even if the kids [00:23:51] were in school, then they're worried about this teacher, [00:23:54] or you know, they're worried about my brother getting [00:23:57] married and they'll find something to worry about.
[00:23:59] Susan Yao: It [00:24:00] doesn't mean you need to stop what you're doing.
[00:24:02] Jesper Conrad: And the [00:24:03] racism project, what was it about? And based on. [00:24:06]
[00:24:07] Susan Yao: That was in high [00:24:09] school I had dealt with racism as a young [00:24:12] child. And I [00:24:15] had a lot of anger about it, but I hadn't [00:24:18] processed it. And so in high school I [00:24:21] went to a conference of Asian American [00:24:24] teenagers, and that's the first time I learned more about [00:24:27] the history of Asian Americans in the United [00:24:30] States and the, you know, the [00:24:33] racism and struggles we had [00:24:36] faced.
[00:24:37] Susan Yao: And I met Asian [00:24:39] Americans who were activists who were positive [00:24:42] change agents in their communities, and I found that very [00:24:45] inspiring. And so for the first time, I had [00:24:48] examples of channeling my anger in healthy [00:24:51] ways and just trying [00:24:54] to, you know, make it a better place for everyone. And [00:24:57] so that's when I, [00:25:00] I decided there were, there was something more important [00:25:03] than getting good grades. And I pursued this [00:25:06] project on my own. I don't remember why I [00:25:09] chose documentary, [00:25:12] but there was a filmmaker at that conference and [00:25:15] maybe, maybe that's what gave me the idea. [00:25:18] Um, but that conference was definitely life [00:25:21] changing for me.
[00:25:22] Susan Yao: I just hadn't thought as a [00:25:24] teenager. Right. I could. Make change in my [00:25:27] community and find the time and resources to do [00:25:30] it. And you, you'd think schools would [00:25:33] help you do that?
[00:25:34] Cecilie Conrad: I don't know what I [00:25:36] think, it's a very oppressive [00:25:39] mainstream.
[00:25:40] Cecilie Conrad: Way of thinking about what [00:25:42] young people need.
[00:25:44] Cecilie Conrad: But I mean, we're [00:25:45] more than 10 years ahead of you in a way [00:25:48] because our kids are so much older. Right. So we're in a different [00:25:51] space and when I look back [00:25:54] at when my kids were nine and [00:25:57] 11 and other, but younger. [00:26:00] Now when I see younger children I'm [00:26:03] really just thinking, oh, leave them be, just [00:26:06] leave them alone.
[00:26:07] Cecilie Conrad: It's really [00:26:09] interesting. I remember my own stress and how I thought I had to do all [00:26:12] kinds of things, and of course you have to do all kinds of things. Take them [00:26:15] on day trips, and you cook them [00:26:18] meals and have conversations and all these things. But really when they [00:26:21] are that young, the whole idea of.[00:26:24]
[00:26:25] Cecilie Conrad: Academically schooling [00:26:27] them from a top down point of view. [00:26:30] Mm-hmm. Even worrying about whether they read or not. We [00:26:33] have one outta four who was a very late reader. [00:26:36] Even that from my point of view now is [00:26:39] just, oh, that was such a waste of worrying time. [00:26:42] That was such a waste of everybody's energy [00:26:45] that we even worried for one second about that.
[00:26:47] Cecilie Conrad: Of course, [00:26:48] we were so we can sleep at night and we had to have long [00:26:51] conversations with other people, and especially of course, [00:26:54] grandparents and. Our [00:26:57] siblings friends. Oh yeah. We had one who didn't read [00:27:00] until he was 13 and he [00:27:03] didn't read, couldn't read. Mm-hmm. While everyone [00:27:06] else was reading around him.
[00:27:08] Cecilie Conrad: Uh, our daughter, [00:27:09] one of our daughters started at four, so it was [00:27:12] just. Actually, no. He [00:27:15] learned to read before our youngest learned to read, but our youngest [00:27:18] is also very much younger than him. But anyway, [00:27:21] it was, there was so much worry and today he's [00:27:24] choosing his trousers when he is buying new [00:27:27] jeans on the basis of whether his Kindle can fit in [00:27:30] the pocket, because he's not going anywhere without [00:27:33] the Kindle.
[00:27:34] Cecilie Conrad: He is probably the one and they [00:27:36] read a lot. All of our kids. Yeah. Well, mostly the three older one at [00:27:39] this, at the moment. They all read a lot. I think Stone [00:27:42] reads,
[00:27:42] Jesper Conrad: oh, he reads all the time.
[00:27:43] Cecilie Conrad: But maybe the oldest Lou [00:27:45] reads slightly more because she reads really [00:27:48] fast when she's reading. But that's just the skill [00:27:51] that she has.
[00:27:52] Cecilie Conrad: So maybe. [00:27:54] I don't know if we did a page count. I don't know who of [00:27:57] the two would win, but it would be a lot of pages, that's for sure. [00:28:00]
[00:28:00] Susan Yao: Right.
[00:28:00] Cecilie Conrad: So the one we have who started [00:28:03] reading really late is a [00:28:06] very, very avid reader today. It was never [00:28:09] really a problem had we been had, we had the crystal [00:28:12] ball. Just known we would've had [00:28:15] so much more peace of mind, man.[00:28:18]
[00:28:18] Cecilie Conrad: Mm-hmm. And, and that's what we also see with a lot of the other [00:28:21] academic stuff. We have a [00:28:24] 17-year-old now who's doing math, never done any math [00:28:27] before. Literally didn't know how to divide two numbers, [00:28:30] didn't know what mm-hmm. The equation was [00:28:33] two months ago, and she's just [00:28:36] learning speed, learning it all right now.
[00:28:37] Cecilie Conrad: Mm-hmm. [00:28:39] What do you call it? K through 12, something like [00:28:42] that. Educational systems don't really line [00:28:45] up align, so it's hard to talk about. Right. [00:28:48] Cross culture. It's quite interesting actually, when she's [00:28:51] running through all of that. She has a plan of doing it in four [00:28:54] months. I'm pretty sure she'll succeed.
[00:28:55] Cecilie Conrad: Beautiful. About how
[00:28:56] Susan Yao: Yeah. [00:28:57]
[00:28:57] Cecilie Conrad: Yeah.
[00:28:57] Susan Yao: Yeah. The math myth was one book that [00:29:00] made me feel better about not doing. [00:29:03] Intentional math and in it, it gives the number [00:29:06] that unschoolers could learn elementary math in [00:29:09] 20 hours. That some families had [00:29:12] casually measured it and found that, you know, in just a few [00:29:15] hours and, but schools will convince you that you need [00:29:18] all 12 years, right?
[00:29:19] Susan Yao: Every minute of math [00:29:21] cannot be missed. They really make you feel bad if you [00:29:24] go on vacation or something. Mm-hmm. And, [00:29:27] uh, but maybe 20 hours is all you need [00:29:30] when it feels necessary, and maybe it will never feel necessary.
[00:29:32] Susan Yao: [00:29:33] I am just starting to have the [00:29:36] hindsight that you have now that, wow, I didn't need to [00:29:39] worry so much because now I can see where they [00:29:42] are a few years later.
[00:29:43] Susan Yao: And I did a lot of [00:29:45] worrying.
[00:29:46] Cecilie Conrad: Oh yeah. Well, I still do a lot of [00:29:48] worrying. Not about the same things anymore, [00:29:51] but I think it's just part of the game of being a [00:29:54] parent and now my kids are old enough that I can talk [00:29:57] to them about the things I worry about, and then we have [00:30:00] mature conversations and figure things out.
[00:30:02] Cecilie Conrad: So that's [00:30:03] different. Of course.
[00:30:04] Jesper Conrad: [00:30:06] Sometimes we meet in the [00:30:09] unschooling movement. Almost [00:30:12] a pride or batch of honor [00:30:15] of , not doing any academics at all, [00:30:18] as is anything that has to do with [00:30:21] schools or academics is bad. [00:30:24] That is actually better not to know it than your [00:30:27] kind of cool, and I find it a [00:30:30] little difficult dance to have [00:30:33] because I want to love and [00:30:36] respect and honor everyone's way of doing [00:30:39] it.
[00:30:39] Jesper Conrad: And I, find it difficult to figure out [00:30:42] how to take the toll because I [00:30:45] think as parents, each of us have [00:30:48] values. We have [00:30:51] values about what we think is [00:30:54] important, and those are [00:30:57] inherited down to our children by just being around them. [00:31:00] Do you meet this in your [00:31:03] unschooling circles? You have been in that, it's almost [00:31:06] like not learning is really cool or [00:31:09] the right thing to do.
[00:31:11] Susan Yao: I know what [00:31:12] you mean. And I have never been at that end of [00:31:15] the spectrum of unschooling where it's [00:31:18] truly, anything, [00:31:21] any possible pathway, no limits on [00:31:24] screens. , I've never been there. [00:31:27] And so I, I'm always keeping an eye [00:31:30] to skills that might be necessary. [00:31:33] You know, if you want high school to be an option, then I [00:31:36] want you to be aware of what limits your [00:31:39] choices or gives you that choice.
[00:31:40] Susan Yao: Or if you want to [00:31:42] have a certain job, uh, I always wanna sort of [00:31:45] notice what they might have or [00:31:48] not have yet. And so. [00:31:51] Our community. Our community does not [00:31:54] have that. We do have a range. One family has [00:31:57] unschooled, multiple children. A couple are adults [00:32:00] now. And it truly is, you know, [00:32:03] anything skills, academic, we're not [00:32:06] academic.
[00:32:06] Susan Yao: The way we define academic is also such a problem. [00:32:09] Right. And then one school chooses to do a [00:32:12] curriculum at home, even though our. [00:32:15] Learning community does not have that kind of curriculum. So [00:32:18] I think we have a range, but, um, [00:32:21] I haven't found that in, in our [00:32:24] community.
[00:32:25] Jesper Conrad: You, you said something [00:32:27] interesting there about even the way we talk about [00:32:30] academics is a problem.
[00:32:32] Jesper Conrad: Can you [00:32:33] unfold that a little? I find it [00:32:36] interesting.
[00:32:36] Susan Yao: Well. I noticed this when I [00:32:39] worked in schools because math [00:32:42] and reading are just, they're seen [00:32:45] as the most important academic topics. And so I taught [00:32:48] social studies and history and so [00:32:51] that's academic, but [00:32:54] often seen as less important than [00:32:57] reading and math.
[00:32:57] Susan Yao: And then you have art [00:33:00] and physical education, which in the US are being [00:33:03] cut all the time. And [00:33:06] you know, if there is a field trip or we need to cancel [00:33:09] a class, it's always let's cancel art first, or let's cancel [00:33:12] music class first and not the important [00:33:15] subjects. And I, one, one reason I [00:33:18] see us defining academics this way is that [00:33:21] the skills that benefit you [00:33:24] as an individual in the job market, that is what we [00:33:27] consider academic and we think a [00:33:30] lot about individualism.
[00:33:32] Susan Yao: Because [00:33:33] we are trying to promote collectivism in our learning [00:33:36] community and in school [00:33:39] we are just, we're teaching [00:33:42] children that your [00:33:45] individual skills matter more [00:33:48] than the groups skills. [00:33:51] And so you need to do what you [00:33:54] need to get ahead. And we even punish [00:33:57] collaboration. Plagiarism is just one of the most [00:34:00] severely penalized mistakes in [00:34:03] school.
[00:34:03] Susan Yao: And it is usually accidental that, oh, [00:34:06] I was talking to my friend and [00:34:09] their idea is in my project, [00:34:12] or I was taking notes and I didn't put [00:34:15] quotation marks, and so now I have a zero [00:34:18] or, you know, a letter in my file because that is the [00:34:21] worst crime of academia and that [00:34:24] really discourages working together.[00:34:27]
[00:34:27] Cecilie Conrad: Which is what we need and which is also [00:34:30] how people
[00:34:30] Susan Yao: are.
[00:34:30] Cecilie Conrad: We learn from each other. We learn from being [00:34:33] curious and having conversations.
[00:34:34] Yeah.
[00:34:35] Susan Yao: [00:34:36] Yeah. And a lot of group projects end up just teaching you that [00:34:39] one person needs to do all the work [00:34:42] or some people take credit and [00:34:45] don't do enough work.
[00:34:46] Susan Yao: We're not really learning how to work [00:34:48] together.
[00:34:49] Cecilie Conrad: But if I can go back to the [00:34:51] how we talk about academics question. I also think there's [00:34:54] the other way around the problem and there is, so in in the [00:34:57] radical unschooling community,
[00:34:59] Cecilie Conrad: we [00:35:00] can put academics in higher esteem. I think maybe [00:35:03] where we come from, we wouldn't not [00:35:06] appreciate social studies and history and [00:35:09] languages. Physics, [00:35:12] chemistry, biology, all these things that are [00:35:15] subjects taught in schools and part of the group we [00:35:18] call academics. They wouldn't [00:35:21] be like in a hierarchy like that.
[00:35:23] Cecilie Conrad: [00:35:24] Mm-hmm. There are some [00:35:27] key things, which is reading. [00:35:30] English and math, but that's because they are tools for the [00:35:33] other ones, right? So it kind of makes sense that you need those [00:35:36] three because you can't really do the other ones [00:35:39] without but I think in the unschooling community [00:35:42] sometimes there's this idea that all these things we need to [00:35:45] not do them.
[00:35:46] Cecilie Conrad: Right. That's [00:35:48] our, so now they become taboo [00:35:51] and it's more important to do you, [00:35:54] you are almost a better person if you're good at your [00:35:57] skateboard and at drawing and at [00:36:00] playing the guitar than if you're good at [00:36:03] knowing about Yes. From an empire and speaking three [00:36:06] languages or whatever. And so I [00:36:09] get that academics have been.
[00:36:11] Cecilie Conrad: A top [00:36:12] thing and it's been oppressing other people and it's [00:36:15] been violent and it's been bad, [00:36:18] but flipping, it doesn't fix that problem, [00:36:21] right? It just reverses the problem, makes [00:36:24] the problem look different as if you have a [00:36:27] yellow problem, but now you have a green problem, but now you have, [00:36:30] but you still have a problem.
[00:36:31] Cecilie Conrad: And I find that [00:36:33] quite challenging being the mother of [00:36:36] quite. Geeky, yeah. [00:36:39] Unschooled kids who happened to be very interested in the [00:36:42] Roman Empire in mathematics and black holes as [00:36:45] before. So it's as if I had [00:36:48] quite, we, mostly me, I was more identifying [00:36:51] with it, more doing it in the beginning. Quite a few years where [00:36:54] I didn't call myself an unschooling mom.
[00:36:55] Cecilie Conrad: I didn't say we were [00:36:57] unschooling because I kept getting this feedback from [00:37:00] the community that I was doing it wrong. Because [00:37:03] of my kids' interest. So they have the [00:37:06] wrong spontaneous interests. They have to be more [00:37:09] interested in I was just like, what?
[00:37:11] Susan Yao: Right. [00:37:12]
[00:37:12] Cecilie Conrad: What? Like when the feminists at the same [00:37:15] time, because I stopped having a career, went home, took [00:37:18] care of my four children, my husband, my home, my house, my, I was a [00:37:21] housewife.
[00:37:22] Cecilie Conrad: So the, and I started writing a blog, [00:37:24] so I, I was like shouting about it and [00:37:27] uh, the feminists came at me and said, but you are [00:37:30] ruining everything. We, we get a [00:37:33] bad conscience and we aren't standing in a bad [00:37:36] light being career women when you are [00:37:39] staying at home with your children because [00:37:42] that makes us look bad and that makes us feel bad, and then [00:37:45] we have less freedom.
[00:37:46] Cecilie Conrad: So please stop doing that. You're [00:37:48] ruining the freedom of women. And I was like, Hmm, [00:37:51] wait a minute. I think I'm a woman. [00:37:54] And I think I made a free choice to do this [00:37:57] thing, so Right. What are you saying? That my [00:38:00] free choice is ruining your free choice? There's no logic [00:38:03] there really, if you, yeah. [00:38:06] Mm-hmm. And there are just some problems in [00:38:09] this field that are, I think we [00:38:12] need to talk about them.
[00:38:13] Cecilie Conrad: I think we need to just point, [00:38:15] Hey, my freedom to do a thing that could be [00:38:18] considered conservative. It's still part of the [00:38:21] spectrum of free choices.
[00:38:23] Susan Yao: I
[00:38:23] Cecilie Conrad: feel free when I [00:38:24] do it. Yeah. So I had that problem. Now I'm having the [00:38:27] academics problem. I'm back in the game. I've [00:38:30] called myself a non schooler for a long time because I [00:38:33] am, and we are, but we're just [00:38:36] also studying [00:38:39] academics.
[00:38:40] Susan Yao: That is absolutely one of the [00:38:42] choices available to you. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I [00:38:45] think of Michelle Fuco who taught us that all [00:38:48] of these alternative cultures, they end up [00:38:51] re reproducing oppression by creating rules and policing [00:38:54] each other. That's the wrong way. Right? It's the wrong way to be an [00:38:57] unschooler.
[00:38:57] Cecilie Conrad: Yeah, exactly. And
[00:38:58] Susan Yao: you undermine the freedom [00:39:00] that you believe in.
[00:39:00] Cecilie Conrad: It's recreating exactly the same system [00:39:03] just by as flipping it. So now we had a yellow system [00:39:06] before, now we have a green system. Great. Same [00:39:09] system. It's different color. Yeah. That's [00:39:12] funny.
[00:39:12] Jesper Conrad: I think it's almost is a [00:39:15] societal immaturity problem because [00:39:18] I see that dialogue has [00:39:21] disappeared and people stand so clean on [00:39:24] there.
[00:39:24] Jesper Conrad: This is the only right way to do it and everyone [00:39:27] else is stupid. Uh, kind of rhetorics [00:39:30] and everything from politics to football, [00:39:33] to unfortunately also academics, uh, [00:39:36] schooling versus unschooling.
[00:39:37] Cecilie Conrad: Why did it have to do with social media? I'm just [00:39:39] wondering right now. Because we all have an echo [00:39:42] chamber. When, you know, when we were teenagers, we would read a [00:39:45] newspaper.
[00:39:45] Cecilie Conrad: Yeah. Everyone was reading the same five different newspapers. It [00:39:48] wasn't like there was any, there was an, you [00:39:51] choose the newspaper you like, but [00:39:54] now you just, the algorithms would just keep [00:39:57] repeating.
[00:39:58] Jesper Conrad: Yeah.
[00:39:58] Cecilie Conrad: What you say.
[00:39:59] Susan Yao: Yeah. You don't [00:40:00] even know you're in a bubble.
[00:40:01] Jesper Conrad: No.
[00:40:02] Cecilie Conrad: And maybe you do, but [00:40:03] you don't really know what's, even if you do know you're in a bubble, [00:40:06] how do you know what all the other bubbles look like?[00:40:09]
[00:40:09] Susan Yao: Right.
[00:40:09] Cecilie Conrad: How can you, even though,
[00:40:10] Susan Yao: You can't even, [00:40:12]
[00:40:12] Cecilie Conrad: yeah.
[00:40:12] Susan Yao: See the other bubbles.
[00:40:14] Jesper Conrad: Oh,
[00:40:14] Cecilie Conrad: [00:40:15] scary business.
[00:40:15] Jesper Conrad: Oh, I need to get some friends I don't [00:40:18] like maybe, and then, then talk [00:40:21] with them and end up liking them. All of a sudden. What? [00:40:24] Oh, no dialogue. I don't, I'm not sure, [00:40:27] Susan, about dialogue. It [00:40:30] has been wonderful talking with you today.
[00:40:32] Jesper Conrad: Uh, we will [00:40:33] try to round up the podcast for people who [00:40:36] wants to. Find what you write on Substack [00:40:39] as I did. And who want to learn more about the [00:40:42] micro school. Can you share with people where to find [00:40:45] you so they know where to [00:40:48] go?
[00:40:48] Susan Yao: Sure. Our, so our learning community [00:40:51] has a website, Vermont Village School.
[00:40:53] Susan Yao: We decided [00:40:54] not to be on social media. The website is the main [00:40:57] way to find us. And then I have a personal substack that's [00:41:00] more about me as a parent, and I created it for [00:41:03] all my college friends who grew up in traditional [00:41:06] schools and are now curious about [00:41:09] alternatives for their children. And so that's [00:41:12] on, on Substack at Suo, [00:41:15] S-U-S-Y-A-O.
[00:41:16] Jesper Conrad: Perfect. Should we
[00:41:17] Cecilie Conrad: just put the links [00:41:18] in the show notes?
[00:41:18] Jesper Conrad: We'll, I also need you to [00:41:21] re-mention the book on the About math, because it [00:41:24] didn't get the title for that one.
[00:41:26] Susan Yao: The Math [00:41:27] Myth by Andrew Hacker. It's a great book. [00:41:30] Questioning. Uh. Why we teach math the way we [00:41:33] do in the United States and how it does not match [00:41:36] what you even need for your career.
[00:41:37] Susan Yao: Even if you work at [00:41:39] nasa, it does not match, and it's keeping so many [00:41:42] students from graduating or becoming doctors. It, [00:41:45] you know, it's a, it's a barrier that is not [00:41:48] even connected to the real world. [00:41:51]
[00:41:51] Cecilie Conrad: I'll put it on my reading list right away.
[00:41:53] Jesper Conrad: Absolutely. [00:41:54] Thank you for the talk and thank you for the book [00:41:57] recommendation.
[00:41:58] Jesper Conrad: It was a pleasure.
[00:41:59] Susan Yao: [00:42:00] Thank you so much for having me. I enjoyed this conversation. [00:42:03]
[00:42:03] Jesper Conrad: Likewise, and
[00:42:03] Susan Yao: thanks for all you're doing.
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