20: Ronni Abergel | The Human Library - Unjudge Someone - Creating a Safe Space for Dialogue

Jesper Conrad: 00:00
Today we're to together with Ronnie, who I have known for I have no idea, at least 25 years. Um, and uh back when we first met, I was a very happy weed smoking young man, and we we met at the Roskill Festival, I believe. Um that's that's more than 25 years it's a long time ago. Um but but the the thing is Ronnie, um when I look at uh why wanted I to um invite you to come on our uh on our podcast, and uh of course uh you as the founder of the human library, that's part of it, but it's actually more fascinated by how you have kept going, how you have trusted in yourself and the project, and have made a project now have reached so many people. So so my part of my curiosity is uh how the freaking button, how how have you had this flame in you? What is it that that have done, yeah, what is it in you that have kept going to create this project? Because it has been a lot of lot of work on me.

Cecilie Conrad: 01:20
So maybe I I think it's a very good question, but as our listeners maybe have not known Ronnie for 25 plus years, they might want to know what the human library is.

Jesper Conrad: 01:30
Okay, let's start there and then take a question afterwards.

Ronni Abergel: 01:34
All right. Well, first of all, thank you for having me on the show. I appreciate it. Uh, like you said, my name is Ronnie Abergel. I'm 50 years old. I'm uh based in Copenhagen, I'm the founder of the Human Library and uh father of two and widower now, 10 years into my journey of being alone with my kids. Um, I think I kept going always, even with Stop the Violence before the Human Library, because I don't know where else to go. I was never a person that had a lot of uh opportunity because of my temper and passion. See, I was I had too much passion, I wasn't professional, they said. I cared too much about what I was doing, I needed to put more distance between whatever I'm doing and myself. And I'm like, well, if there's any more distance between what I'm doing and myself, then I don't care about doing it.

Cecilie Conrad: 02:28
I like that. Yeah.

Ronni Abergel: 02:29
Because this is how I function as a human being. I actually need to care about what I'm doing in order to do it well. So when I used to work at a hospital when I was very young, I really cared about the patients, about them getting safely to the X-ray machine or to the to the dialysis or to the hairdresser, you know, and I socialized and I, you know, I treated everyone properly and I enjoyed working at the hospital. In fact, I sometimes I miss it because, you know, helping other people uh just is is useful to me. It's kind of give me gives me a fuel. There are many ways you can help other people, but this was one way of helping other people. And I had this student work at the hospital as an orderly. First I did the cleaning and then I became an orderly. Uh, so I was transporting patients to the operating room, trying to calm them down. You know, they were nervous about what was going to happen and things like this. And then when my friend was stabbed, I started to stop the violence when I was 19 years old. Literally because I felt that this can't be right that you're risking your life when you're going out to party on a Friday night in Copenhagen. My friend was stabbed six times in the stomach and thrown on the street like a like garbage, you know, by people who didn't even know him. And he had not really done anything to deserve getting stabbed in the stomach like that. And we decided to respond, me and my brother and my friends, and we started organizing this party. And before we knew it, everybody knew who we were, and we're doing more parties, and we had a movement going. And we managed to mobilize more than 30,000 young people uh across the country in our campaign and work, peer group education work, to get young people to leave knives at home, you know, to not arm. And this was very meaningful, you know, going to a 10th grade center with 250 kids, and then after two hours with them, standing there lining up to shake your hand and thank you, and giving you different items like brass knuckles and pepper sprays and switch blades and butterfly knives and all this stuff. I had a whole box full of weapons that young people. In the office, you know, if police came, they would have been very upset because we had a whole box of weapons handed in voluntarily by young people. And on each weapon, there was a label that said which school, what date, and who was there. So it wasn't only me who got weapons. My my colleague Christopher and my my uh Danny and and the others also were in events where people came up and said, Hey, you gave me something to think about, I don't need this anymore. And it's quite powerful moving people's motivation, working with people's motivation, nudging their behavior somehow, or showing them a different path. And and so with the library, which is now 23 years into the journey, um, it was really about making an impact in less than two hours. But it was pretty much the same. Whether I'm on stage for two hours nudging you, working on your attitude towards arming, towards using violence in your communication or intimidation as part of your strategy, or whether I'm sort of working indirectly with you by putting you in front of someone that you think you don't like. And then after two hours, you realize this person is an ally, a friend, and somebody you have sympathy for. I mean, that's changing your outset on the world, and that's that's it matters to me. And I know that it's an endless mission because there are billions and billions of people behind the people we're working with right now. And I'm not doing this to get to the bottom of things, I'm doing it to make a difference. Because sure, I could be a used car salesman, I could be a journalist uh reporting important stories, but you know, if if I wasn't the journalist reporting important stories, then some other person would be the journalist reporting important stories. Nobody else could drive this human library forward the way I have been able to. Nobody else could have picked up the mantle and said, okay, we're gonna take this and we're gonna go plant this flag on the moon, and it's gonna be a long journey to get there. And I kept going, I guess, because I kept believing in the mission. But also, I mean, especially after my wife passed, I didn't really feel there were anything else meaningful to do. And as I started by saying, I never had like 15 job offers in front of me, everybody pulling on my arms saying, Oh, we want you to come over here, we we want to give do you to do this, do that. Um, I got a lot of opportunities, sure, but not really permanent job, uh more like projects, and can you help with this task? It's a limited time and all that. And I did some of that odd freelancing consulting kind of work, but uh, but also I'm I'm really uh I'm not the best person to be taking orders. I just I gotta be honest and say that I it's a problem for me that if I don't have competent leadership uh guiding me, then I I'm not I won't function well. And in many of the workplaces I've been to, uh I've did not have competent leadership. No, in fact, uh, and it wasn't just my opinion, it was plain to see for everybody on the team that we don't have competent leadership here. So I'm not the person going, oh, I don't trust you. I'm the person that gives everybody a chance, but then when they show me that they're not, don't know what they're doing, then I start losing trust in them, you know. So in the beginning, obviously, if you're the boss, you're the boss and I trust you. But if it turns out again and again and again that you're making weird and wrong or terrible decisions, or you don't know what decisions you're making and the consequences, then you lose respect for people. So I decided, hey, I'd like to be my own boss at some point. And so this was also an opportunity to sort of uh be the skipper of my own boat, and so it started with a very small boat, just me in the boat, and then uh you know kept investing more time and resources, and we got more people onto the boat. We got a bigger boat and a bigger boat, and in the end, now we've got like a ferry of a sort with a with a with a 20 several ferries, actually. We've got a big boat in the water now, and we're sending out little ships to go into little harbors and start more and distribute, and and it's going well because we've mobilized thousands of volunteers around the world, and we've got almost 30 people on staff. So that's pretty good for something that just 10 years ago when my wife passed, there were no employees. Yeah, and the reason for that is really because this library, well, maybe to give an intro about the library. Yes, this library is a safe space where instead of borrowing books, you borrow people. And these are people that can help you challenge your stereotypes, your prejudices, even confront you with your own unconscious bias. And we all have bias. So it's part of the slogan of the human library is it's an opportunity to unjudge someone. Why do we say that? We say that because we take responsibility for the fact that we all judge. 20 years ago, we said don't judge a book by its cover. But that is really total crap. It's it's something that's very famous. We all know the saying, everybody can relate to what it means. But the fact is we cannot stop judging a book by its cover. It's unavoidable that when you see something new, something strange, something different, you're gonna make a risk assessment right away. And that's part of judging that person's potential for friendship, intimacy, hostility, all kinds of assessments over a broad parameter. We as human beings have a survival instinct, it's built in. We see something, we make a quick risk calculation. Okay, and so when I met Yespa the first time at Waskle Festival, I wanted to give him a big hug. He was a big bearish type.

Cecilie Conrad: 10:11
Now he's not a big risk.

Ronni Abergel: 10:14
Oh, not a big threat in any way, you know, a very friendly, amicable guy, and uh sort of exube sending out uh just friendliness, openness, and a bit of a loving soul, you know, wants to be in harmony with the world, isn't always, but wants to be, is looking for that harm, harmonic place. And sometimes things are not, they're a little disrupted, but yes, but tries to embrace and and go with the thing and get the waters to sort of be comfortable, yeah, to navigate the waters and be comfortable. And and you know, you really that makes you calm. There's no competition, there's no threat, there's no nothing, uh there's there's nothing there that should get your radar going, but we all have this built-in radar. And if we see something that's potentially dangerous, or we meet somebody, for some reason we don't like them, we just dislike them. We have bad chemistry or something else, we won't connect with them, or we'll be socially apprehensive. I thought, what if we could create a space, a framework where you could borrow someone for a limited time, obviously, and talk to them about the thing about them that you're not comfortable with, like their mental health background being schizophrenic, or their obesity, or their disability, or their religion, or their sexual orientation, or their ethnic background, or their occupation, a police officer, sex worker, journalist. So we give out people from homeless to HIV, from immigrant to refugee, from uh you know, unemployed to high IQ, we give out people on loan that can help challenge your unconscious bias, but sort of based on some of the prejudices and stigma and stereotypes that those people have faced in their life. So if they have a lived experience that we could learn from, and they can surrender to the methodology of the human library, which says, don't campaign, don't agitate, don't provoke, uh, surrender to the agenda of the readers, meaning it'll be your questions in the meeting between you and the human library book, it'll be your questions that guide the conversation. I don't have anything I need to talk about. I'm here to make myself available to your courage and your curiosity. So if you two came in and you borrowed someone who was bipolar, you could ask them anything you want about their life as bipolar. And if you ask something that was way off topic, nothing to do with their neurodiverse background or their mental health, they might say, hey, those pages aren't published yet. So it's really a safe space to not be judged, where you can take risks, uh be respectful. There are certain rules to our methodology, and maybe it's good to just recap the rules of engagement real quick. Bring the book back on time, just like at your community library. Don't hand it over, don't take it home. Basically, treat it the way you want to be treated. Then everything's gonna be fine. And if we look at it, you know, people have said to me, Ronnie, why a library? This is a great idea, but why did you come up with a library? I said, Well, because one, who is welcome at a library? Everybody, yeah, yeah. You can be rich, you can be poor, you can be young, you can be old, you can have the full mobility of your body, or you can be in a wheelchair or otherwise physically or mentally disabled. You are welcome at the library, no matter who you are. There's one

Ronni Abergel: 13:51
rule you need to adhere to when you're at the library. You gotta respect the space and everybody else's right to be in the space. If you come in there and you're gonna start telling people, well, you can't be here, or you can't do that, or you're too, then you're then you're disrupting the space. But if you come in there and with respect for everybody's, you know, peace of mind, do what you want in there. Next question: who is gonna tell you what to do at a library? Nobody. If you need help, there's a librarian to help you, but the whole world is at your feet. Information virtually, information in magazines, books, whatever you want, you can get at the library. So I thought this is a perfect uh piggybacking on the most neutral and inclusive institution. I like to call it the most equalitarian place in our culture. And it's a place that's been around for 6,000 years. It wasn't always like it is now, but the library as a as a construct is 6,000 years old. So everybody's welcome there, everybody's equal, and you can't, you don't have to pay to play. It's not like going to the stadium. If you have a lot of money, you can sit down by the behind home base in a baseball game, or you know, at the middle of the field in a in an in a football game. No, no, or by behind the touchdown, whatever. That's here, it doesn't matter how much money you have. Only thing that matters is that you respect the space. So it's very equalitarian in this way, and I like to call it a Jedi mind trick right out of Star Wars, because of course people can't be a book. Nobody can be a book. There's people, they can be people, but they volunteer to be like an open book for you. That's what we say. So they volunteer, they get trained, they have a lived experience, you can ask them any question you want. It's basically a space to explore humanity, learn about our diversity, and sort of be sensitized to your own unconscious bias. Maybe agree to disagree, but at the end of the day, you can potentially unjudge someone if you become a reader of the human.

Cecilie Conrad: 16:02
Which is my favorite thing to do. When I read well, I have several favorite things, but I really like it when you get that insight. Oh I got that one wrong. You know, when you really know okay, it feels like just one, it feels lighter, like a layer peeled off, a clarity.

Ronni Abergel: 16:26
Because as you say, we all concern you removed, a fear. Yeah. Fear. I've learned something over the years, reading many, many human books, if you could call it that. Uh, and I I think I I don't want to claim that I have an elevated sense of humanity, but I have an ability to see through many layers of the complexity of our humanity, which enables me to navigate in many environments and in many different groups. It's actually made me stronger and it's made me less fearful. And as I traveled the world, I've been able to engage with a broad scope of people: Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, Catholic, Jewish, agnostic, all kinds of religion, all kinds of orientation, and felt completely safe. Never felt uncomfortable. Even in the darkest alleyways in Morocco, uh, with people trying to show me where to get the Kif. You know, I was not afraid. I was somehow not afraid. Maybe that's also pretty stupid, but living your life in fear is not a quality life. I can help you now. It's not a quality life. Or living your life being angry, like I could be very angry with the doctor that postponed my wife's heart surgery. I'm not. I was angry for a while. I went into therapy, I took years to work with myself and my emotions, but today, 10 years in, I'm not angry with him. I will, I haven't been angry for a long time. And and I also realized that anger doesn't do anything good for you. So if you're going to be upset about something, let it be temporary. Okay, be upset for a minute, get that off your system, off your chest, and move on. You know, start afresh, start anew. I'm not saying we never get angry. Of course we get angry. We're human beings, we have emotions, they go up, they go down. Sometimes they're very warm and kind, other times they're a bit tense. And I'm not saying you can't be tense, I'm just saying let it pass. You can be tense about your neighbor, not doing his lawn. You could be tense about your coworker not running at the same pace as you are. You could be tense about your kids not paying attention or doing their chores or not doing like you hoped for or expected, but let it pass. Let it pass so you can live in peace. Life is too short to walk around being angry and disturbed by other people's uh you know presence. Simply just allow yourself to be in where you are and appreciate that. You know, I'm sitting here in a bunch of boxes because I moved two months ago, and there are many boxes that have not been unpacked. And it took me a while to be at ease with the fact that all these goddamn boxes are still here because I want them to go away. My ADHD wants them to go away. I want the room to be cleared, I want to have serenity, and now I've realized there is no rushing this because there is no way to put the stuff that's in the boxes, so I can't exactly empty the boxes. What am I going to do with all the crap that's in the boxes? So I gotta first get organized. No, I gotta get organized, my furniture and stuff, get my things on the wall, and then slowly reducing the amount of boxes that are left. And that's what I'm doing. And I'm taking it slow, but it took me a while because it didn't move for 23 years. I wasn't, I didn't, I have the same apartment for that long. It just took me a long time. And literally getting used to the fact of being in between places because your life was in boxes, stressed me for a moment. In fact, a month and a half or two, I was all around myself. Uh, what am I gonna do with all these boxes until I came to terms with it? So I think it's the same with people that might be disturbing to you, with people who maybe think different from you or live different from you. Like you all have a bit of an alternative life, also. And your approach to living has also been probably a source of great inspiration to many people, but probably also a source of uh wondering like what the hell are they doing? Why are they going about it this way? Oh, that's wrong, or that's not right, or well, maybe it's not right for you, but it's right for you and Yespa. And that's what's important, yeah, you know, coming to peace and to terms with who we are and what we want to be in this world, and not to be too bothered about what other people are thinking. Um, that's that's some of the things that I've been dealing with and working on. Especially I realized that when my wife passed away because it was such a tragedy, and the way it happened, like out of the blue, her heart valve collapsed while we were on vacation in Spain. And basically, what happens is I realized going out, I wasn't going out a lot, but I was going out now and then. That social burden that's put on your shoulder, that you have to make other people feel comfortable with what happened to you. Which is uh it's a it's a bit of a negative, I think, in in our way of being human beings. Because what the hell's going on? I'm already under some duress here because my wife died, or I'm battling cancer, or I'm overcoming some other great adversity in my life, and then I have to make you all comfortable with me being here at this thing. It's just not fair. And and you know, nobody's gonna, it doesn't matter what's fair because there is no fairness, but it's learning to deal with the way and the mechanics of dynamics and of human beings can sometimes be a painful process. So I actually stayed at home over a year. I didn't go out because I realized I don't have the resources to make all these people feel comfortable. When they should be making me feel comfortable.

Cecilie Conrad: 22:04
I

Cecilie Conrad: 22:04
had the exact same experience when I had cancer. I had the cancer. I was very in high risk of dying. And I didn't even want people to visit me at the hospital because it was all about assuring them that it was going to be okay and I would survive, and it's not that hard. But it was hard. So it was a kind of lying in a way. It was very unsettling for people around us, and most of them really tried and really did help us as well. But in a way, they wanted me to support them in handling it. And there's as you said, something backwards about that. Do you have books in your library?

Ronni Abergel: 22:59
Yeah, yeah. It's a topic. Bereavement, bereavement and survivors of breast cancer, survivors of suicide. We have a lot of different survivors and people who are left behind, you could say. Nobody wants to talk about it. Nobody likes talking about death. And they'd even come up to me and be like, is it okay if we talk about what happened? And they were afraid to talk about it. And I'm like, wow, well, geez. I mean, I actually want to talk about it because it's like when we talk about it, she's not forgotten. Don't talk about it, it's like it didn't happen. It didn't matter. And it mattered the world to us, and to my kids, to me, and and to her family and my family. So it impacted everybody here in the near circles tremendously. And and but when I look at it today, I'm not really in touch with a lot of her old friends anymore. So they were all there right when it happened, but they've kind of faded over the years. Obviously, they were also her friends, not mine. But uh, you know, I'm I'm still kind of maybe a little bit disappointed uh that they disappeared out of the horizon. And so one day I met somebody on a train, one of her very close friends. Like this was a person that even uh abandoned me on Facebook and everything. And she said it was just too tough. And I had never thought about that because I was so caught up in my own having a difficult time with coping. But of course, it was also tough for her best friend.

Ronni Abergel: 24:42
Yeah, very tough.

Ronni Abergel: 24:43
Yeah, yeah. And so I forgave her. I'm not, I'm I'm not upset with her or anything, but for the sake of the kids and for the story of their mother, I would have liked for 20 or 30 years to be like, hey, let's uh let's form a circle around these kids and help them uh remember who their mother was. So that's been a job just for me and her grandma and my mother-in-law, uh, to sort of keep that fire burning. But it's uh it's it's not easy, and it's a bit of a I don't know, social it's a social construct that needs to improve amongst human beings, and that's why I put bereavement so much at the forefront of what we do. It's part of our social status pillar. We have 15 pillars of prejudice. One of them is social, and that'll be your social status. That could be unemployment, that could be you being a uh, I was gonna say an asylum seeker, but a refugee, for example, from Afghanistan. It could be somebody who was unhoused or homeless, it could be, you know, so a lot of things pertain to your social status, and including bereavement. When you're in grief, it's part of your social status. It's also a disease now, it's recognized as a diagnosis. Long-term grief is recognized by the World Health Organization now as something that people cope with. And I think I had some long-term grief, but I'm on the other side. I'm doing well, I'm living life, I'm uh taking up advantage of opportunities because I understand that tomorrow this could all be gone. Yeah, tomorrow it could be me who passed away suddenly. So let's make every day matter, do important things, tell your kids how much you love them, spend quality time with the people you care about, all of these things, and make sure you spend your time, whatever your job or function is, on something that's rewarding for you. Because it's it's where you spend most of your life, your adult life is at work. So if it's not rewarding, then at the end, when you retire, then you're gonna be like, oh, now it's time to live life, but now you're 70, your body is worn, you got a back pain, you got a blood sugar thing, you got a, and you know, you can't really take advantage as if you had been 15. So there's no reason to wait till 70. Try to do something that really matters and makes you happy every day. And I think that's what I learned from uh her passing away. And so for a while, it was uh getting a lunch by myself and choosing something that I really felt like eating. Like I would drive almost to your old neighborhood in Dula to have a pizza.

Jesper Conrad: 27:20
Yeah, I've been we I've been there together with you, and it was a really good pizza. No, it's another one.

Ronni Abergel: 27:27
It's a really good pizza down by Demning, it's a place called Matsatura. Is it called Matsatura or something?

Jesper Conrad: 27:33
I can't remember it, but you took me there once.

Ronni Abergel: 27:35
It was a good but it's still there, and and um and it had really good something that I that melt me made me feel like eating. So that was what was important at the time. Now I'm still I'm still appreciating these lunches. I am. It's it's my moment by myself often. I get a little piece of uh food and serenity and time to think and relax, and those are moments that I appreciate every day. And uh, and same thing when we sit here in the living room having dinner with my kids in the new apartment with this great view and the sun, and and I I rejoice over, hey, look what happened. We moved away from the the dark where we were, and all the memories of of uh what had happened to us into a new place, a new opportunity, and lots of light, lots of space, and they're so happy, they're thriving. So to seeing your kids thrive in the framework that you created and provided, so rewarding. So every day I try to you know take little bits of happiness because I think happiness comes in very small portions. It's not a constant thing that you're happy, uh, but it also shouldn't be a constant thing that you're concerned or nervous or afraid. So you gotta find that balance, not working around like ah, everything is fantastic, but finding uh the appreciation on everyday things. And I try to do that from my work, from my life, and I'm I'm actually quite happy, especially happy that I quit smoking. It was my gift to myself. I quit last year in August, and I just simply I had enough. This voice in my head had been telling me for 27 years, what the hell are you doing? Uh hurting and damaging yourself, breaking down your health with this thing. And I heard the voice, I heard it screaming and shouting, and I heard myself coughing and all this stuff. Wasn't paying attention, was I? All of a sudden I'm like, I'm 49 years old. I can't like not hear this voice anymore. It keeps telling me you got it. What the hell are you doing? You're too smart for this. What are you stupid? And I guess I was. No, but that's it, and I had enough. And I'm like, okay, I'm stopping. And I did not touch a cigarette since, and I'm not looking to smoke. I'm really happy being completely smoke-free and really smoke-free, not smoking anything else either. I'm just not smoking. Um just getting happy

Ronni Abergel: 30:00
with that. But then comes the increased appetite. Oh, yes. So, yeah, so for the first time in my life, I got, and it's only on my stomach, I got a belly now. A little, it it's off camera, unfortunately, but uh and it's not uh that kind of screws with my mental uh balance because when I have to tie my shoes, when I have to put socks on and all that, the belly is kind of in the way.

Jesper Conrad: 30:27
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ronni Abergel: 30:28
Now I started this three days a week workout where I do about an hour every morning uh on this yoga mat, you know, get get myself back into motion, not just the 10,000 steps a day, but actually, you know, stretch and get the muscles going and do push-ups and to become more limber. I gotta do more, and I'm doing more, and I'm drinking water and I'm trying to eat more healthy and eat less. And now and then I'll even skip a meal because I want to bring the weight back down. And I know it's not easy when you're 50, but I do want to come back to where I'm not just happy with my not smoking, but I'm also happy with my physical presence. So I was never a fitness freak or anything, but I was a workaholic. So I would work a lot and just eat quickly and work more. Now I need to find a better balance, and I'm working on it, working on it.

Jesper Conrad: 31:22
And I am certain you can do that, Ronnie.

Cecilie Conrad: 31:24
Uh you can, yeah.

Jesper Conrad: 31:25
I mean, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you are one that can uh put your mind to stuff and do it. Um two questions that came uh up in my mind uh while you talked. One of them uh was about the grief, uh, because um, as it has been 10 years, you have of course been in new relationships, but at the same time, you have been open about the grief and and and and missing your wife. And looking from the side, I was always impressed by that because um I was like, Oh, how does that affect a relationship with someone new? Um, so so but you did it, and I think it's very brave to do.

Ronni Abergel: 32:09
Well, it's a very good question. Uh it wasn't always easy. I like you mentioned, I've been in different relationships. Some were shorter, some were longer. Right now, I'm with a wonderful woman. I've been with her for years now. It's the longest relationship I've had since uh my wife, and um, and she's been the one who's been most reasonable in coping with the fact that I have a I'm gonna have a lifelong loss that I'm learning to live with. Because you don't get over it, you learn to live with it, you learn to cope with the fact, uh appreciate what you had, miss what you had, but live with the fact that that that most of it's gone and now it's fond memories and warm emotions, and I never surrendered my emotions about her. See, the thing is, we were not divorced, we're not separated or uh finished with each other, we're in the middle of everything, two little kids. So there is no reason for me to not still care about her. Yeah, there's no there's no closure you can offer, like say, okay, well, she was a pain in the ass or whatever, and you know, our love faded or something, because it didn't. It was there, it was there when she passed, and it's still there today. So, and and that takes a lot off somebody else because they're like, wow, there are shadows here, and there's sure. I said, but we've got to differentiate between a passive love and an active love. So for those who've lost a parent and who love their parent, uh, you'll know that it's a passive love. I mean, you always love your father or your mother who you lost, but it's not it's not a love that's uh evolving because there is no more uh source to feed that love. And so it's passive love, and and so it's a shrine of a sort inside me where I I stay warm through this because I remember her love for me, keeps me warm, and and I don't forget my love for her. So it's in this way, it's yeah, it's a heartwarming and and a very beautiful thing, in the sense that I converted that into some positive energy that I could harness, but it wasn't always easy for the women that I was seeing, and some of them actually it was they couldn't cope with it, so I had to leave one person because she just simply could not accept. It's like, well, you haven't moved on. I said, Well, there is no moving on from this. There is learning to live with it, but there's no moving on. I'm I'm a little better every day, but there is, you know, and this was maybe five years in. I had to leave this woman. Uh, we had to break it off because she could not she could not cope with with those emotions, and she was jealous. And she says, Well, it was the greatest love of your life. I said, That's that's you can't describe things in that way. Every love is different. So, whenever you fall in love with somebody, it's different than than the other person you fell in love with. So don't compare yourself, don't just be happy that we're together now. Because you know, I chose you and you chose me, and that's what's important. It's not important if you chose, I mean, you've just been married 20 years to some guy. Uh, am I jealous of that guy? You have four kids with that guy. Am I jealous of that guy? No, I'm happy for you. I hope you had 20 great years. I understand that at the end it was difficult, and so you broke it off and you got divorced, and sometime later you met me, and now we're together. For having another chance at love. What's going on here? So, some women are a bit, some people, not just women, some people are a little boxy about this. I'm trying to be very flexible, but also because I've got the luggage. Uh, and when you're the one with the luggage, you're always sort of hoping for the lenient eye from that other partner. Because if they're not lenient about it, then you gotta hide your luggage. I can't live like that. I'm not willing to live like that. So if you can't accept my luggage, you're not gonna accept me. We can't be together. So the woman that I'm seeing now, it's not been easy. I'll say that. She does have four children, and but she got a lot of luggage too. And so for the first time I met somebody where I felt it's a different kind of luggage, but I felt we're almost equals here. I'm not down here and you're up there because oh, you have to accept the fact that I have all this luggage and which could which could slow us down or prevent us from achieving certain things in our relationship. No, we're actually equal. You've got a different kind of luggage, like your suitcases are yellow and blue, and mine are red and green or whatever, but we've got about the same amount of suitcases here, you know. And at the end of the day, I have to accept as much about you as you have to accept about me, which makes us more even. So I think part of the explanation why some of it wasn't a lot of relationships, but some of the other women that I saw in that years that passed um didn't work out. I think part of the explanation was they didn't have any luggage. They had only a two-piece. And I got like a seven-piece action luggage, and it's all and a storage room.

Jesper Conrad: 37:44
Yeah. Yeah. But I got storage.

Cecilie Conrad: 37:48
It got me thinking about what we talked about before. How I'm not sure we talked about it after we pressed record. But this thing when you were, you just lost your wife and you would go out, and people wouldn't understand how you could have a good time. We have our listeners probably all know, but I had this cancer disease 12 years ago, and we almost lost me. And the whole family was in shock for a long time. The risk of the disease coming back was pretty high for a long time. So we had a few years, yeah, nightmare kind of life. But we could have fun. We could sit in the garden with red wine and and laugh and look at the stars and light a bonfire and enjoy the I was there. But

Cecilie Conrad: 38:36
but it was very hard for some of the people surrounding us to understand. It was as if we had to be afraid all the time, or we had to be sad, or we had to, I don't know. So we talked before about this contamination of your social life that you have to kind of apologize. I'm so apologize. I'm sorry, I have cancer. You're all gonna be okay. Um, but there is also this complexity, and your story about your love life after losing your wife is also about a complexity that can be hard to understand, I think, for some people, that it's not black and white, it's not one love of my life, it's not I'm afraid of dying of this disease. So I'll just sit here over here in my corner being afraid all the time. How can we avoid that?

Ronni Abergel: 39:30
Well, I completely I think we have to respect that all of us are different. And some people, some people might sit down and stop living their life because the shadow and the burden that's in front of them is is simply overshadowing their life so much that they're unable to live. They're basically shutting down. Well, I'm gonna die anyway, might as well just or giving up, or at least they don't know what to do. And then there are other people who are like, Well, hell no. I'm gonna fight this, and I'm gonna live life every day, even if my amount of the amount of days I have left or less, then I'm gonna do something about that and I'm gonna take advantage every day. It's it's a question of sometimes I think mentality and attitude, and so people have different attitudes and different mentalities, and I I respect that, uh, but it never stopped me from having a good time. And I really I I reached the point where I don't really care what other people think. And I don't mean to be rude or anything, but I couldn't give a shit. I could not no, I could not give a shit about whether you think it's improper of me being out dancing 14 months after my wife died. Shit, I wish I could have been dancing 14 days after she passed because dancing makes me feel happy. Yeah, makes me feel good. And if there's something you need just after you lost the love of your life or similar, it's to feel good. They don't understand that because they haven't been in that situation. Can try and explain it, and I did at some point, you know, in the beginning, I tried to say, but listen, I'm I'm out here, I'm gonna have some fun, I'm gonna go home, you know, and then it'll be back to processing this. But for the next couple of hours, you know, I prefer to just have a ramen coke and relax and not be processing, but just be having some good old fun. It doesn't necessarily take alcohol or weed or something to distract you, it could just be something that stimulated you, you know. And uh and and I would do that and not have, but I did have in the beginning a little bit of guilty conscience.

Cecilie Conrad: 41:46
Yeah, exactly that. Exactly that. And I think also I had the problem, we had the problem. Our daughter wrote a boat book about the problem that if you look like you're over it for an evening or a day, then it seems like most people around us would not understand. We're not over it, we're just having fun for a while. But that doesn't mean that the threat of the deceased coming back or your loss of your wife is not still there, it's still there, it's more complex. It's not like you have this problem and then it stops and it's gone. It's it's a problem that you have, and you can it's more, it's just complex, and it seems like sometimes there's this black and white understanding of these serious either you're in grief or you're not like we judge a book by its cover. So here's a happy book, okay, and then the sad book is over, we put it back on the shelf, but it's life is not like that.

Ronni Abergel: 42:50
Life is a lot more chapters than just a happy chapter, but I think people I had two reactions. I had one was like, Wow, are you are you know, are you really okay? Because you seem like you're having a great time. I said, I'm having a great time. I'm am I okay? I mean, I'm as okay as I can be under the circumstances, but right now I'm having a great time. So don't worry about it. And the other person was like, Wow, it's great to see you having a great time because I know what you've been going through. So, also in the reactions from the surroundings from social circles, wasn't black and white either. It was also, you know, different nuances to the way they reacted. Most people were happy to see you having a good time, but there was the risk of them thinking, oh, he's over it.

Cecilie Conrad: 43:36
Yeah, that's it. Yeah.

Ronni Abergel: 43:38
Because we're imagining we're gonna sit there and we're gonna be devastated 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, not sleeping, not eating, turning into gray matter. And it's just that doesn't help anybody. And I had these kids, I had to get up every morning, get my kids to kindergarten and school, go make the breakfast, make lunch boxes ready. And then when they were at school and at kindergarten, I had to go shop and I had to get ready for them coming back from school in kindergarten and maybe get ready for dinner and do laundry and uh fix this and that. So I had a lot of practicals that kept me going. If I had not had those kids, I swear I might just have killed that doctor that postponed her operation. It was that upset. That's how upset I was. I was that angry with what happened, and with and I felt it was so not fair. It was so unfair. It was very unfair what happened to us and to the kids also. But but the kids got me, uh held me back, you could say, saved my life in the sense, gave me good purpose to get up in the morning, gave me good purpose not to hit that guy with my car five times, and and and sort of uh progress in life and find peace with what happened and try to make the most because what what what became really important was okay, this is definitely messed up. Uh the boy is two, his mother is thought his sister is six, the mother was only 37, and so Zoe left us early. But what would she want from us? What will she want for us? What will she expect from me? And I asked myself those questions, and the answer was take care of those kids, make sure they have a good childhood, whatever you can salvage, salvage that and spoil the hell out of them, you know. Go travel, go to amusement parks, eat ice cream, uh, go roller skating, go out in the sunshine, go to the swimming pool, go do all the stuff that makes you happy, makes them happy, and try to live life, you know, not stop. Uh, but but rather what we always wanted for them. So that's what I tried to do. And and sort of transitioning to this new home, which is, I I kid you not, when you come visit, it is a better place. And it's better also in the sense that there is a light here. There's light, there's air, there's sunshine, and there's space, and there's and there's a brand new home in the sense that we renovated the whole crap. It was 45 years, nobody did anything to this apartment, and it's like moving into a whole new life. And I'm just so happy that I was able to do that, to get back on my feet, recover the economic situation, and get to a situation where the bank would lend me the money to buy this flat, which is almost twice the size of the one I had, i.e., more expensive, and just on one income. Yeah. So we really pulled myself back, but I'm also I'm not the one to lie down. But Jesper asked me, why would you keep going? Because what else can I do? I don't know what else to do. I don't know to quit. I don't know to, I can't sit down and just put my hands in my lap and and give up and say, okay, that's it. I hell, I'll never do that. I'm just that's not who I am. And I sometimes I wish that that was possible because then I could have just given up and not take all this upon myself, but say, hey, you you gave it a run, you got beat down, you can stay down. It's okay to stay down when you get run over by a tank. Nobody's expecting you to get up from from an earthquake. Uh, you're under the building that fell on top of you. In Turkey, we were not expecting to find people down there. We did. Some of them survived underneath that. And and it's the same here. I was in a human earthquake and I had to get back up. I'm just happy that I could, uh, that I was able to, because I know some people were not. And I meet sometimes people who are devastated, whose lives have been devastated, and my life has too, but I've learned to cope, deal, and live with it. Others are still struggling 12 years down the road, and they've they're still not near normal. And you know, it's it's I wish for them to be able to find the uh the energy and motivation in their life that I found in mine. But I got things to do, and time is running out, so not our time. Well, that too, but you know, but you got things to do in life, you gotta move, and you know the world waits for nobody, it doesn't wait for us. So, knock on wood, lucky to be uh be at the helm of a library that helps people find themselves and and meaning in others, and at the same time could give me the fuel to get up in the morning because beyond the kids, you got to do something, you gotta make money, or you're gonna be living in poverty. And so I realized, you know, at some point, this is gonna have to be my job and it's gonna take some time. And it took a couple of years before it even started paying out a salary, yeah. But since then it's been going really well, and I'm you know lucky to be here.

Jesper Conrad: 48:48
And and and Ronnie, I remember one day asking uh you about it because there's so many volunteers, so many people uh offering their time to this wonderful project you have. And I asked you straightforward, like I like to do it. So, what do they get out of doing this? Um, and your answers, I can't remember your answer properly. Uh so I'm asking you again, what is in it for the for the volunteers going to the library and be in book and share their life?

Ronni Abergel: 49:22
Well, let's let's it's a good question again. Thank you. Yes. Um let's differentiate between volunteer books and volunteer librarians. Yeah, so let's start with the books. Um,

Ronni Abergel: 49:35
now imagine your whole life. People were judging you, people were, oh, he's not serious, or oh, I don't like that, or I'm not gonna invite this person, I'm not gonna include this person, or maybe even discriminated against you, or some people chased you, exposed you to hate crimes because of who you are, because of what you are, what you believe in, or how you were born. You can't run away from these things. You can't run away from your parents being Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist, you can't run away from a physical disability that puts you in a wheelchair. Uh, you can't run away from your skin color, your ethnic group. There are certain things that are just, it's part of the DNA of you, who you are as a person, but there is a lot of people who might react negatively towards it. Now imagine being misunderstood, typecast. Uh, if you had schizophrenia or bipolar bipolar disorder or autism, people misunderstood your capability, your potential, the quality of your person. Maybe they thought you were dangerous because they heard schizophrenia. And schizophrenic people are, aren't they the ones that are dangerous? There is this whisper out there, you don't know. So you're just, you know, suffering all the consequences, and you can't do jack about it. Well, maybe you had enough of that, and you were like, hey, I'm gonna volunteer for this library and I'm gonna help explain to other people what it's like to be me. That HIV is not contagious anymore, that you can touch me, it's not dangerous. You can give me a hug, I won't, you know, you won't go home with HIV. Or that, you know, uh, I'm a Muslim, but I'm not trying to convert you to Islam, or I'm a Buddhist and I believe in Buddha, but I'm not expecting you to join me here. I mean, or to agree. You can we can agree to disagree. So a chance to be understood. I I try to call it a chance to be understood, and if you if you succeed at that, then it's actually a chance to be included. Because if you've been kept out of the good company all these years because people thought that because you had that tattoo on your face, you were a bad guy. But when they got to know you, they realized, oh my god, he's the sweetest guy out there. I've never met such a sweet guy who looks so dangerous, you know, but you're not dangerous. So dismantling the fear, the social apprehension, the anxiety can be very useful. And it's also cathartic to be talking about yourself, uh, in a certain extent. Even this conversation for me has been cathartic because you guys have such great questions, but also um putting words to your your own experience. So you're sharing with complete strangers, they're asking you great questions, and you get a chance to think about stuff like I had a question I wanted to share with you, also, Cecilia. There was one of my readers who said to me, Well, if you knew your wife had a heart condition, why did you go to Spain on vacation? And I'm like, but dude, she had that heart condition since she was nine years old. So we're like, never gonna party, never gonna travel, never gonna have kids out of fear for the heart condition. That's not how we lived our life. So there was no way we're not going to Spain, and she's the one that wanted to go to Spain. And by the way, the doctors in Spain were as competent, if not more, than the doctors here. So it's not like we had it worse by being in Spain, but the question still hit me a little bit like a hammer in the head. Because, oh my god, why did we go to Spain? And in retrospect, would it not have been wiser to be closer to the hot to that hospital? Wouldn't have made no difference. Wouldn't have made no difference. But the question kind of made you question yourself. So we are um, I think all in transition, understanding ourselves, our journey, our life, and you know, the opportunities we had or didn't have or are trying to get to. And by volunteering to be a book, you get a chance to reflect, to connect, to network, and to dismantle other people's fear, basically offering them quality of life and yourself. And as a librarian, you're helping build bridges in the community, you're facilitating the meeting between strangers to have a safe space where they can explore. You, the librarian, are making that space safe because you're supervising, you're supporting, you're explaining the concept, preparing the reader, introducing the reader to the book, and you're picking up on both books and readers after. How was your experience? You feeling okay? Did you get the answers you were looking for? Uh, you know, and supervising the books. Are you all right? Do you need support? Do you need anything? Is there something we need to talk about? So you're a caretaker. So if you're looking for meaningful volunteering, there's maybe nothing more meaningful than actually being the librarian. I mean, if you can't be a book, the next best thing is to be a librarian because you make it all possible. So I think these are uh, but you're right. I mean, one of my friends back then, Christopher, you know Christopher, yes, yeah. He said to me, But Ronnie, why would people volunteer when if they're obese or if they're disabled or if they got this big mole on their face and it's been a pain in the neck for them their whole life, why would they volunteer to talk about something that makes them vulnerable? I said, because through that vulnerability comes a strength, they'll become stronger by confronting that. And in Washington, DC, we had a high-ranking officer of the World Bank with the same skin disease as Michael Jackson, but also African American. And so this woman volunteered to be a book, and when she came to the book training, she says, Ronnie, I'm really in doubt. What do you think my book could be? And I said, No, but there's no there's no discussing it. We gotta address the elephant in the room, and it's the Vidaligo. We got to talk about the Vidaligo. And she pulled up her sleeves, like trying to hide the Vidaligo. But but sweetie, it's on your face, it's on your throat, it's on your arms, on your hands. You can't hide who you are. And even if you would try to say, hey, I'm the African American lady, and I'll talk about the discrimination I face growing up and as a black woman in America. Sure. And that would be great to talk about, but we've got to get the other thing out of the way first. Like, what is that on your face?

Jesper Conrad: 56:14
Yeah.

Ronni Abergel: 56:15
If we don't address the elephant in the room, nobody's gonna hear anything you say. They're just gonna be staring at your face, going, What is that on her face? So it's up to you. I said, you can take charge or you can be on the on the reactionary side afterwards, sort of. And she's like, Okay, let me think about that. And she came back and she goes, she took her sleeves up, she goes, I'm going with Vidaligo. I speckled life. Yeah, so for the first time she came out and she talked about her skin condition. Underneath, you could ask also about her color of skin and what that had meant, but really the skin, the sort of skin condition was the main topic, and she felt great about it. And I'm still in touch, and she is, you know, it's empowered her. She's wearing short sleeves at work now, okay? Because it's hot in DC and Maine. So she's wearing short sleeves at work, she didn't care, people see her skin condition, but gave her confidence to be herself. And look, accepting yourself is the first important step to being happy in life, you know, it's not to be unhappy with who you are, but sort of come to terms with it. And she did, and she's very successful. She did a great job doing a great thing, and uh, and also an incredible open book. So these are just a few of the examples. I've had so many uh rewarding stories of people that benefited from the library, and I got a thank you note last the summer before last during COVID, I got a thank you note from a guy who borrowed books at the original event in 2000. So 21 years later, he still remembers his experience. Yeah, that's beautiful. You know, and I also had I had a letter from somebody uh that had remembered in that was also 2021, I got the letter, but that was somebody that had visited a public event we did in Copenhagen in 2004. So 17 years later, still remembering who they met that day, what they talked about. So finally I got a letter from the the CEO of one of the biggest companies in the world, a company called Compass Group. So Compass Group has over 500,000 employees worldwide. And we did a training for the C-suite level and the board of the company, so the top, top leadership. And I got a letter in the mail in my private address, a handwritten two-page thank you note from the CEO of the company. So Dominic wrote to me, in all my years in leadership, this is the most impactful training I've ever had. I've learned and I understand and I'm changed by it. And I've I'm inspired to take actionable steps within my own organization to ensure that we are more inclusive. And it's an important employer because they employ people on different levels. Even people that have no schooling at all, you could get a job with Compass Group in the section that's in sanitation and renovations, and so they do a lot of and facility services. So there's a lot of unskilled labor opportunity as well. So some of the weakest people in the labor market, at least looking at competence, get opportunities in this company and become a resource to the community and a taxpayer and many other great things, and able to provide for themselves. So it's a win-win-win situation. Why would he take the time to write me a page and a half thank you note if what we'd done for them did not help? He did not have to do that. He did that because that's how much it impacted him. So I'm doing this also because you know you could sell used cars, or you can do something that helps change the world to a better place. I really believe that's what we're doing here. We're helping change the world into a better place.

Cecilie Conrad: 01:00:10
I I can sign off that. Yeah, yeah, you totally are.

Jesper Conrad: 01:00:15
I I have a question, Ronnie, because um, and it's one I believe I've never asked you before, which is um what about people who have a lot of prejudices inside of them or who judge people a lot, would they go to a library? So um, or are you only preaching for the choir?

Ronni Abergel: 01:00:38
Who who am I to judge who comes? But but I will give you this much. Yeah, I don't think we're preaching to the congregation, but I think our public offering, meaning public libraries, festivals, the reading garden in Copenhagen that's open every Sunday over the summer, all of these free opportunities that are public oriented, probably are not visited by those who need it the most. Probably. I think everybody needs it, but some people maybe would benefit even more from coming than you and me. Yeah, uh if if we are to sort of categorize, but I don't like to judge. But I do say through our work programs, which are extensive, they're told by their leadership to be in attendance. Yeah, they're expected to be in this leadership training session, like in Nashville recently for American Theaters, AMC, or in um Phoenix, Arizona for Tex-Mex or for Migamex, uh, producers of these Mexican, incredible Mexican food products. Or recently in Chicago at McDonald's University, where 200 people from the American marketing team were in attendance. Now, those 200 marketing people did not choose to be there. Their chief marketing officer decided that they're gonna be there. Yeah, so that's how we reach beyond the congregation is literally you're being told by your employer, you need to do this training, you're gonna do the training. And so from some of those groups, we get also response. Here's some of the response. In my 13 years as a leader, I've never experienced anything this impactful. Or when I saw two hours blocked in my calendar, I thought, oh my God, but I could have spent the whole day at your library. So we get, and I got a call from a big equity fund in the US called Bain Capital. So Bain Capital is an equity fund with about 200 billion dollars, really insane, and uh a portfolio of companies that they own a stake in or they own entirely. Yeah. So they have all these portfolio companies, which are over 50 companies where they invested significant sums into that, the the development of those companies. One of those companies is based in Europe, and one of the leaders from one of those companies attended an event that we put together short notice outside Heathrow Airport because another leader from that company decided we need something to rattle our cage here at the company for this leadership seminar. Could you come? And then we said, sure, we'll come. And we went to the event, we did a really nice thing. This guy, Phil, calls back to his mothership connection, which is the mother company, Bain Capital, and he says, This is the most profoundly life-changing experience I've ever had. And then Bain Capital calls us and says, We talk to Phil. And everybody who knows Phil, Phil is the most conservative, conservative leader in that whole company. So if you guys got to Phil, then we're on the, you know, then we can do something. And I've got to say, sometimes, uh, look at the McDonald's statistics. When we get almost a hundred percent approval rating from our users, it's uncommon for the sector that we're in. Because when you're speaking about diversity, equity, and inclusion, there's already there one in five going, oh my God, not more of that diversity stuff. Oh, I'm so tired of hearing about the diversity stuff and what's in it for me. But when they try this, they realize this isn't just about other people, it's about you. It's about the way you think, the way you feel, the way you talk, the way you perceive other groups, and your ability to connect with other groups, with people that are different. So these are life skills you need to hone. And having these courageous conversations helps you do that. So we're the reason why we're expanding in the middle of a crisis and hiring more people and continuing to grow is because the impact of the program is tremendous, and people take ownership of the learnings in ways that many other leadership development trainings and DEI trainings, they're not able to do that. They're not able to have lasting change power with sit within the people that are involved. We are. And and you know, 10 years down the road, they remember they did this. At the end of their life, they're gonna remember they did this. So I'm fortunate to be in a vehicle that is not just passing you by on the road, and you're like, oh, what was that? Was that a okay, it's gone now, it doesn't matter. No, I'm in a slow moving boat, and anybody who gets on board and takes part of that journey will remember that part of the journey where they were with us. So in that way, we have lasting. Power, and that's why we keep coming back. Also, to recently, we're in the um the uh Simad University Library there in Mugadishu in Somalia at Dobale University Library. And I mean, these people, it's their third time in six years hosting. They keep coming back because there is a demand. People are asking, when does the human library come back? So they want to learn, they want to have opportunities that are safe to explore each other's backgrounds and not be canceled, not be perceived as offensive or ignorant, because there are no stupid questions at our library, there are no wrong questions.

Jesper Conrad: 01:06:41
I think that's one of the things I love about it because often when I talk to people, um there are people who get off hinted, not because I'm offensive, not middle like that, but sometimes you are no but sometimes you're downright, you know, you want to provoke. No, no, no. Yes. But but no, no, but I actually honestly I love to have fun. You love to provoke, but okay, just teasing, he's just teasing, it's just teasing teasing, yeah. No, but uh, for example, um um one of my own co-workers is uh homosexual, and I've had a lot of fun with him, talked a lot with him. But if I had talked about um when people hear maybe would overhear, they would get offended on his behalf. And I think this here whole get offended on others' behalf is a really destroying thing for for the way we interact, and that's what I love about the the human library. It's a safe space without offense, and people are not there to get offended. I almost feel some people sometimes are on a what can offend me today mission.

Ronni Abergel: 01:07:54
Yeah, and and and that is really it's a sad situation for all of us that it's that's what it's come to, that we take offense so easily, or we we um we think that the motive of other people is to offend or to be abusive. It's not necessary, it can be, but it's not necessarily. And sometimes friendly teasing between two friends from outside can be seen as, yeah, like you said, can be easily misunderstood or misconscrewed by those who are you know eavesdropping or watching from the outside. Um, at our library, if you offend easily, don't become a book. Because people know people here will ask questions and you're gonna hear the same question a hundred times. You gotta be patient, you gotta be accepting, but we don't talk about tolerance because we don't want you to be tolerant. We want you to be understanding, just like you want to be understood. So please try to understand the perspective of the reader so you can give them the best potential answer to the question. Uh, and whether you're tired of that question or not, then it's up to us to work with your motivation to be a good book and not sort of surrender to, oh, I've answered that a thousand times, I don't want to talk about that. But you have the right to say, hey, I'm not, I don't want to talk about that. Uh, I don't think we get a lot of people that are offended. I think we got a lot of people who are surprised. Wow, I didn't know it was like that. I never imagined that that could be, you know, a path forward for some people, or I never met anybody with this type of strength. How could they overcome what they've been going through? It's so amazing, so inspiring. Um, but not a lot of people get offended. But we do live in a time also where you have to understand that being offended or uh is also a way to get attention. Yeah, and so I think that some people found out just like polarizing politics is a way to obtain power, then being offended, whether it's on your own behalf or on behalf of somebody else, is a way to attain uh attention, especially if the people you're offended about have a high profile, a public profile, um, famous people for any reason, you know, they can barely say something wrong before they get canceled. And that's I think that's a bit of a sad situation that it's come to this, because look at it as lack of education. If somebody is using a wrong word to describe someone, is it because they want to offend or is it because they don't know any better? So there are certain stories out in the media every now and then. Right now, there's a story about the the president, the CEO of Tesco, which is the largest supermarket and grocery chain in the United Kingdom. So this man apparently behaved in ways which was not proper. And I guess he had unwanted touching of a staff member, and he had he made some comments about somebody's the way somebody looked that was perceived by that person as offensive or at least uh transcending the boundaries of their personal space that they did not appreciate. And this guy is like 70 years old, so he comes from another generation. Yeah, and if you think about what he's used to and what he's seen in his life, then things were very different 30 years ago in the labor market. So you have to that change comes, but beating people down for making you know mistakes, it depends how severe they are. I'm not talking about Harvey Weinstein type of abuse because that's criminal, negligent, and you need to go to jail, and that's just disgusting. But I mean, there's there's certain examples coming out where I think, wow, there is zero uh tolerance amongst an audience that is asking for acceptance. How does this work? You're asking me to ask me to accept the ways in which you're different, the ways you want your pronouns to be uh handled, or the certain um, let's say, circumstances around your position that we need to take into consideration or considerations we need to show to fully include you and for you to feel comfortable. And we'll do that. But you don't have to also, you know, understand that we're in a transitional period between those who used to do things in the wrong way and those coming into power now that are trying to do things in the right way, and while we're in this transitional period, there's going to be you know things that go wrong, but let's not be intolerant. I actually one woman called me once from the Ukraine, actually, before all this trouble in Ukraine, and she talked about these uh people in Ukraine that were not very open to people of certain LGBT, QIA plus backgrounds and stuff, and she said, Ronnie, we have no tolerance for the intolerant. And I had to say, but what does that make us? You said it in the own sentence, no tolerance for the intolerant. That means yourself. Because if you're not tolerating those who are intolerant, then you are intolerant for Christ's sake. I mean, what's going on here? So are we gonna sink to that level? Or are we gonna try to embrace the people who are intolerant and say to them, hey, that is really unfortunate that you feel this way. Maybe you misunderstood something about who I am. Let me explain. You know, try to contact with them because once they get to know you, it's very difficult to hate somebody that you know. Yeah, I mean, it's very rare that you hate somebody that you know. You'll hate those people over there, gray masks, because they support a different football team or something, or that political group that you think, but when you get to know them, like my friend recently went to the National Rifle Association uh conference in Indianapolis. My

Ronni Abergel: 01:14:14
friend, an open book from Indiana, is a transgender. So Charlies is there, signed up for a membership of the NRA to get tickets to the conference, stood in line with all the NRA members, and she talked to a lot of them. And you know who they were, they were just like us.

Jesper Conrad: 01:14:34
Yeah.

Ronni Abergel: 01:14:35
We disagreed on certain things, but we had so much more in common that was keeping us apart. And these were not plain evil people. These were people who, in one way, thought that you know that gun made them feel more secure, and that was a right they wanted to protect. And maybe we disagree there. Maybe we think it's not needed with all the guns, and maybe they'll come around. I see more and more people getting murdered. It might one day dawn upon some of them that all these guns are not healthy for the mentality and the culture of the society. But sort of she stood there in line, she went to all the talks, she heard all the politicians polarizing the crowd, but the crowd itself were not that hateful. But when they get mobilized by people who are harnessing the power of the hate, then it becomes, you know, to a danger for all of us. But when you go near them one-on-one, they're not that way at all. So are they truly, really the way we think? Some of these neoliberals or Trump supporters, whatever we want to call them, radicals. I think they're not. I think the leadership is, and I think they'll do what the leadership says. A little bit like sheep. We're looking for strong leaders, and we believe in them. But if there's strong leadership that come in and says something else that they trust and believe in, then they're they can be molded, they can be they can be pulled back into the middle. So that's basically what I'm hoping that we can do with this library is pull some of all these people on each side, come into the middle and let's talk. Let's see if we can find common ground, let's see if we can agree to disagree and respect each other's right to be different. Maybe you're gonna unjudge someone.

Cecilie Conrad: 01:16:24
Maybe. So if those listening to the podcast would like to attend an event, they could probably just go to the website, see where the closest event is. But what if it's not? What can we do? Well, If you cannot make your way to actually attend an event, how can you work with this in your own life? What would be your expectation?

Ronni Abergel: 01:16:50
Okay, but first to find events, let's start with that and then talk about if you're not able to access at all. Following us on social media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn is gonna be more helpful in finding reading opportunities than just going to our website.

Jesper Conrad: 01:17:08
Okay.

Ronni Abergel: 01:17:09
Um, so so I recommend supporting us on social media or finding us and then receiving regular updates about what are the reading options this week, where can I connect with the human librarian? And it moves all around. So there's there is there is, of course, not for everybody everywhere at the same time, doesn't exist, but then you can join us online every other Sunday, which is always a great reading opportunity. If you have internet, Zoom, webcam, etc., then you can become a reader, it's free of charge. Sign up, you have to follow social media, and the the 80 spaces are gone really quick. So you want to sign up right away, apply to be a reader as soon as you see the post, uh, because I mean we have a strong interest on the online sessions. So, but literally, let's be honest, you don't need the human library to unjudge someone. You need to look at yourself and look at what are my biases and why. Why do I feel something when I see that person or I hear that person or I'm I'm engaging with this person? Why do I have these feelings? Ask yourself, have the courage to ask yourself, what's wrong? Why are you upset? Why are you angry? Why do you dislike this person? And question that. Question why you're disliking that person. Is it really necessary? Or is it because you're hearing something wrong? And I know it takes capacity, it takes ability to reflect, and it takes also questioning your own senses. Because sometimes it's a stomach thing. It's a stomach thing, and it says, whoa, I really don't like this woman, or I really don't like this man, or I'm I'm afraid of people that are a certain background. But if you get a chance to get to know them, you know, and it reminds me of the origin story of this library, which is years before we even created the thing. We're in a train station waiting for a train, and there's a man sitting on the bench drinking beer, and I judged him as a beer drinker because it's daytime, he's not at work, he's got a whole bag of beer, he's probably sitting there more often than not just drinking beers on the bench. I'm assuming potentially unemployed with uh an alcohol. I didn't know, so I didn't ask. I just judged him really quick back then, because we all judge. And so I'm listening to him while I'm waiting to the train, and he keeps talking about how these immigrants and Muslims and people who have dark skin need to go back to their own country. And I'm like, oh, do I have the energy to get into this, you know, with some guy who's drinking and it's two o'clock in the afternoon. I just want to get on my train and go home. I can't save the whole world. But I do notice when an Arabic man then comes in on his way into the store, inside the station, and he comes over and he shakes the guy's hand and he knows his name. And these two are obviously very friendly with each other. And so after he leaves, it's a it's a courtesy call. He walks into the store. I'm sitting there on the bench with this guy, and I look at the guy and I say, dude, two minutes ago, you told me all these and these have to go back to their own country. What about the guy that just came in now? He goes, That's Muhammad, I know him, he's okay. And it gave me the idea if we could create a space where everybody could get to know each other, we might find out that we're okay. And then nobody has to go out to the country, or nobody has to be out of the labor market, or nobody has to sit at home and be lonely. Because people who understand your quality and want to be with you. So a chance for a more inclusive world for all of us, for our kids, too. So let's hope for that. Anyway, it's been a pleasure. Uh, and people can be awful.

Ronni Abergel: 01:20:59
Thank you. If anybody uh is inspired to become part of this movement, you can join at humanlibrary.org. You can apply to be a book, you can apply to be a librarian. There's a lot of uh training going on all the time. We built this beautiful portal for new books with Jesper's help, by the way. So, you know, um come check it out. Maybe you got a book, good book uh hidden in you. Yeah.

Ronni Abergel: 01:21:22
Yeah.

Jesper Conrad: 01:21:24
That was uh pleasure. Yeah, you made me cry, cry, you made me laugh. Uh and it it uh maybe you even got smile.

Cecilie Conrad: 01:21:32
Oh, you got goosebumps.

Jesper Conrad: 01:21:33
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Thank you for your time, Honey.

Ronni Abergel: 01:21:37
It's great to be with you. Thanks, guys. Be safe, okay.