S2E11 - Breaking the Chains: Freedom and Trust in Parent-Child Relationships

AUTOGENERATED TRANSCRIPT

S2E11 | Ladies Fixing the World

Cecilie Conrad: 0:14

Good morning and welcome to the Ladies Fixing the World. I am with Sue Elvis connecting from Australia. This time we flipped. That's why I said good morning, because now it's my early morning, and what time is it with you?

Sue Elvis: 0:28

Sue. It's sometime after three in the afternoon, Cecilia, and it makes a change not to be here before the sun rises. I'm at the other end of the day.

Cecilie Conrad: 0:40

I'm happy to flip it. So for those who don't know Sue, I think you should pop directly into her beautiful website and read all the stories from an unschooling life. It's beautiful and there is a lot to learn and a lot of authenticity. Also, I have Sandra Dodd with me. Welcome, Sandra, connecting from the USA and you have the late night today.

Sandra Dodd: 1:04

I'm in Albuquerque and it's after 11. The window plan was 11 to 1 in the morning. On the other episodes I've had the cushy noon or 1 in the afternoon. So I don't mind flipping it around, I don't mind flipping it around.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:17

Thank you, Sandra is the front runner and I would say do you say?

Sandra Dodd: 1:26

grand old lady, but I don't like the word old in that equation.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:28

I am old, you insist on that, but I don't feel the vibe of it. Sandra has been in this game for a long time and your presence and also just the way you collect all the wisdom and put it out there on a daily level has helped, I'm sure, thousands and thousands of unschoolers over the years. So it's just great to have you here. Welcome, sandra. Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here. It's fun.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:51

It is fun and today we're actually for once recording only a few days after last recording where we left it on something like this relationships relations question. Should we dive into that again? It will not be the first time, but it is a big one and I think I'll pass the talking stitch to Sue to tie it to where did we come from and why are we talking about this today?

Sue Elvis: 2:18

Well, I think that you can correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I think how we got to relationships. We were talking about doubts and fears, and I said that quite often readers on my blog will stop by and leave a message saying their biggest fear is if they give their kids more freedom, the children will choose to do things the parents do not agree with, and many times it does encompass religion, so somebody who has a faith that they're very much, it's very special to them, that's what they believe. And then they're afraid their child might go off there and hear something else and maybe want to become a Muslim, an atheist, maybe a Catholic. If they're not Catholic, whatever. And that's the biggest one I heard. And so the parents hang on to control because they're afraid of giving their kids too much freedom. And I don't think it just applies to religion, it applies to other things as well. But we were talking last time about because we build up trust between our children and we are closely connected with our children. We proposed that we are the people, the family, that our children will listen to the most. They trust us, we trust them, we build up these relationships and I think we've ended on. Why should our children listen to outsiders who don't really care about them and who don't love them like we do, rather than listen to us and the members of our family? I think that's where we got up to, but we didn't really dive into that and explore it anymore. So there's a lot there, I think, but that was just basically, and then we decided because it was around about the two-hour mark that maybe that would be a good conversation for next time.

Sue Elvis: 4:29

And here we are. So do you think that was the recap or do you think I got all that wrong? No, it was good, you got all that very right. I got all that wrong? No, it was good, you got all that very right. It just reminded me of an episode of Self-Directed Cecilia and you had Gordon Neufeld on and his book with. Was it Gabby? Yeah, and they were saying that in the internet, maybe that you have to have close connections with your children so that your children can be free to go out into the bigger world and be safe because you're connected with them. They're the ones that will they'll. We are the people that they will turn to for information, for safety, for love, for love for whatever. If we have that good relationship. Can you remember if that was the?

Cecilie Conrad: 5:26

gist of what Gordon was saying. Yeah, I mean that's Gordon's, and I agree with him one of his main points that we need to be their solution, we need to be their best bet. At least we need that they trust us to be. So I think I personally I just want to be on the top five, kind of I don't have to be the only reference point. I think that's a bit strange. We put I mean, we all enter this life and we have a context of family and some families are great and awesome and the relations are full of trust and love and peace and all these things, and some are less so. But we also find other people in our lives and when my children are adults, I'm happy if I'm just on the list. I don't have to be the only one.

Cecilie Conrad: 6:20

And I'm saying this because you said, you introduced this with this whole conflict of who gets to influence our children. How free will we let them be? Are we afraid they will make choices, or that values, that we don't agree with? And I actually think we have to roll that back a little bit and wonder do we even have the right to decide what values our children take on when they grow up. Is that freedom ours to take and can we take it from them?

Cecilie Conrad: 6:57

I think it's fooling ourselves. I think they're born with this freedom to be who they are and have the life experience they're having. And if we think controlling them and keeping them away from certain contexts and not giving quote unquote that freedom to them, quote-unquote that freedom to them, we're just removing ourselves from that top five of who you trust and who you will turn to and where you take your information from, and fooling ourselves to believe that we can control who they are becoming. It's not, it's just a blur. It's not like they don't have that freedom. You, whether you keep them really tight like, move into the forest somewhere, far away from everything, everyone and everywhere, and never let your family meet anything but trees and moose. They still have their own mind. You know they will think for themselves and they will go off and explore life in the way they came here to do.

Sue Elvis: 8:00

So they and if you're afraid of their religious choices or whatever, that's part of unschooling, though I think that, from what I've just said, it might sound like this is the guarantee to make sure our children adopt our values and our way of life adopt our values and our way of life but I think in that we have to give our children the freedom to express their opinions, to try things out, to make mistakes, but also to be that safety refuge for them in our homes. I don't think that, as you said, cecilia, that we have this idea about what we want for our kids, but they're individual people and they might make different choices from us, but that's their right, isn't it?

Cecilie Conrad: 8:52

It is, and my point is also when we say it comes out of our mouths all the time. The three of us in these conversations, but lots, loads of parents have these conversations about how much freedom do we give our children. I think we really need to question that question and say how much freedom do we accept that they already have? When we think we're not giving them freedom, all we do is push them away. Giving them freedom, all we do is push them away. All we do is that if they have a question in mind about, let's say, religion is a core value in your family and your children need to question that. They have real questions in their minds. Being soul existence, they question. They're not sure where they are with it, but you're so strict and you're not giving quote unquote. The freedom of the mind is there. It has been there all the time. The freedom to ask questions there all the time, but they're not going to pop that question with you because they don't trust you.

Cecilie Conrad: 9:50

To have a good, solid conversation and respect around their exploration of this idea could be religion. I've had it a few times around food, as I'm a vegetarian and some of my children have chosen not to be, and we've had well, actually not some, only one, but whatever doesn't matter, but it could be some values that are really close to your heart. You're like, hey, we don't do that. But then, on the other hand, if they don't trust that they can come to me and talk to me about these questions that they have, they will talk to someone else and they will venture off. Hopefully, they will do their own thing and not live under the weight of mom's values.

Cecilie Conrad: 10:32

Imagine my mom could still decide what I eat for breakfast. That would be lame, right? So I think what all we do when we take freedom away from our children is to push them away, and that's where, for me, that's where the tie from our talk about fears and freedom last time and into relation. That's where it is for me. We need to get over that fear and we need to accept that they have this freedom. They've had it all along, they came with it, and if we try to control it, all we do is limit the option for us to be the solution, for us to be a reference point, for us to be on that top five of people you want to talk to when you have doubts in your life.

Sandra Dodd: 11:29

Yeah, when I was. I have notes everything you said. I have a story, but I'll go in chronological order. When I had my first baby and he was four months old, I was having trouble nursing him. So I went to a group where moms help moms called La Leche League. In those days it was very active in the United States and so I went to my very first meeting. I didn't know anyone and there were two leaders and I couldn't tell them apart. I just knew them as Lori and Carol. So one of them and I don't know which one, and they don't know which one because I've asked them both Did you say this or the other? She said I don't know. Both of them said so either.

Sandra Dodd: 12:05

Lawyer Carol said be your child's partner, not his adversary. Just in the course of talking about how the nursing relationship could go, and you know, they would say you may not know how, but your child knows how, and things like that. So I just I. That was a turning point for me because I had thought you need to teach this child everything, you need to be the leader, you need to know what's going on and then tell the kid what's going on. And so they said be your child's partner, not his adversary, and I thought, man, even though he's four months old. So then, whenever he would cry or reach for things or whatever, I thought he's uncomfortable. I need to help him be comfortable. He can't't reach this thing. I need to hand it to him because we're partners. And it made everything so much easier. And that thought stayed with me through two more children and a lot of years, and it still works. When they're grown, it's really. It's just a different. It's not a big change, it's just a little shift.

Sandra Dodd: 13:00

And so when I was first in discussions in unschooling discussions about six years later I guess, a very young mom whose child wasn't school age yet said with enthusiasm she wrote you'll be your child's only teacher. It wasn't about unschooling, it was about homeschooling in general. But I thought how horrible, what a terrible thought. Because in school, one of the coolest things is, if you have a teacher you don't really like, there'll be a different one next year. You know there'll be. You have opportunities to hear from all different people and you learn from the other kids at school. And so, even though I wanted to be my child's partner, I didn't want to be my child's only partner or his only source of contact with the world or his only source of help. So I just thought, when she said that you'll be your child's only teacher, I thought that's not a good wish to have, because what if you're not the teacher your child needs? I don't think any one person can learn everything from another person. That's very limiting.

Sandra Dodd: 13:58

So when my son was a little older he may have been 10, 9 or 10, he said Mom, who was the first person on this earth? And I thought how cool that he's gotten this old and doesn't have an internalized Adam and Eve. You know, he's not stuck with one story or another, he's just willing to ask it like a general question. And I said well, a lot of people believe that God made one person named Adam and then he made a female and then there are stories that go with that and some people think that gradually, over millions of years, people evolved from other you know primates.

Sandra Dodd: 14:32

And he said, oh, and I thought I'm thinking he'll be able to ponder this for you know the rest of his life. But immediately he said which one do you believe? Oh, man, and I said well, I used to believe one and now I believe the other, and I don't think it's very important really, because here we are. So I just kind of turned it light, but I didn't expect him to immediately say and which one do you think is right? Because he was willing to go with me, because I was his partner, I guess, I don't know.

Cecilie Conrad: 15:04

But that's my point exactly about freedom. And can I use the word, maybe, influence? I like choices, but I mean, if we are a reference point and they trust us as a reference point, and they trust us as a solution rather than a problem, a source of wisdom rather than a source of restriction, then I think we're at a good point. As parents, of course have the discussion how much influence or how much, in what way do I have the right to install like to insist on installing my worldview, value system, religion, if I have one, lifestyle choices in my children? Is that ethical? Is it all right that I think that I should push hard for them to become what I believe was right for me to become? I think there's a problem here.

Cecilie Conrad: 16:12

But I am happy that my children will ask me what I think, and I suppose, sandra, that your son has also asked other people during his life. So which one do you believe? And he must have run into people who believe a third or fourth or fifth version of where does mankind come from. So you were the reference point and obviously you have to think about what's my exact answer here. But on the other hand, I think it's a a healthy relate. It's a sign of a healthy relation, basically, that he's asking you your opinion. So which? What do I? What's your take, mom?

Sandra Dodd: 17:33

there was a unschooling advocate who came along excuse me for it and caused some trouble for a few years. We would. We kept having to clean up after things she had said and done. She would make some really excited proclamation about this is how unschooling is. Then people would try. It didn't work or whatever. They would come to us and say, well, I heard it was this and we're saying well, don't believe everything you hear. It was hard because generally people can hear about unschooling from 20 places and sort of synthesize it on their own. But there were some problems coming and one thing was photographs. There was a photograph of all the kids in this family climbing on rocks by a beach that was all rocky and there was a big sign that said don't climb on the rocks.

Sandra Dodd: 18:12

And they're past the sign climbing on the rocks you know sort of dancing and waving, and that was all set up by the parents, wasn't the kids idea, you know? The parents said go over there and climb on the rocks so we can take a picture. And there was another, not just that family, but someone had been at a homeschooling museum or something and there was like don't climb on these dinosaurs, some you know sculptures of dinosaurs. And so someone sent a picture of kids climbing on the dinosaurs and said, well, but of course they climbed on the dinosaurs because we're unschoolers and that was super irritating to people who were doing. Well, you know, who had a better philosophical take on how to help your children live well in the world, how to help them see why there are rules about not climbing on rocks or no-transcript. And then people were saying they're not your things. Or somebody said one time I let my kids climb on tables, so if I come to your house I'm going to let them climb on the table. And I said no, you're not, then don't come to my house. Which seemed really harsh. But in context it was like, wait a minute.

Sandra Dodd: 19:30

If the question can you jump on a bed, the answer has got to be it depends which bed. How big are you? Are you two or are you 15? Who owns this bed? I don't know if you can jump on the bed. Here's one you can jump on and don't jump on this one.

Sandra Dodd: 19:48

So that helps kids figure out when and why and what factors are in play. When you're making a decision, what do you need to consider? And if they trust the parents and the parents say, oh, we're going to this party, you know here's who's going to be, here's how they feel about this or that, so you know they're just trying to show them how to maneuver through this social situation where some people are okay with kids being loud, some people might not be All that sort of illuminating a situation where you say, okay, here's a situation, here's what's expected of us, let's go try to do well, so we'll be invited back I think also, you're touching upon the there are no rules situation, and I have also met this and this dissonance around some unschooling families, where it's as if this breaking free from the idea of rules and control becomes this climbing on the dinosaurs and it just it looks like a totally out of control situation for everyone.

Cecilie Conrad: 20:49

And I'm not saying this in a judgmental way, I just think I actually just yesterday had a conversation about rules. I forgot in the introduction to say where I am, but I'm in Budapest right now and there is a huge event going on for traveling families with teenagers, and my teenagers are venturing out to a level of independence that I'm not used to, and this is happening in the entire group. So there's been some talk about curfew and you know things like like that, and I have the no rule. So we had a conversation on rules and the thing with rules is that everything is contextual. I could make a rule, but it would only apply if the context is the exact same, and that would only happen in a very few cases. So, which means the rule is actually not useful. I don't need as many rules as there are days in the year. So I see the these stories that you're sharing, as it's a little bit of an immature unschooling journey if you haven't gotten to the point where, yes, there are no rules, but that doesn't mean we don't have to read the context and, based on our values, make some choices on how we behave, how we carry ourselves through this situation.

Cecilie Conrad: 22:18

It can be fun to climb on rocks beyond the sign of don't climb here, if it makes sense in the context. If that's what I mean, I'm not against breaking rules at all. I am a systematic rule breaker. But that's because I'm a rule questioner, because I look at the context. I'll jaywalk, for example. I did it yesterday, I do it all the time If it makes no sense to stand there. No cars, the city's empty, and why am I here? So what am I saying? It's a little bit the same thing. Are we a reference point to unfold questions, explore doubts, figure out what this life is? If we question rules rather than break them, then we have opportunities for hundreds and hundreds of meaningful conversations with our children, fine-tuning what's important, what's at stake, and this leaves them at a point where they will stop to think about what they're doing in this life in general.

Cecilie Conrad: 23:25

It can be a big problem to follow rules. Let's not forget that A huge one. I'm in the Jewish ghetto again, as I was in Krakow when we were there. So we're living where the ghetto was during the war and right down by the river there's the monument with the shoes where the Jews got shot. I mean, following rules sometimes is worse than breaking rules. So I think in the unschooling community, the idea that we have to question the rules, it's a very healthy idea. The point is just, we're not breaking them for the sake of breaking them. We're questioning them for the sake of having a thoughtful and mindful precedence in this world, and this also gives us the option to have meaningful, powerful relations with our children.

Sandra Dodd: 24:18

I think it's important that parents who are being partners to their children, who are focusing on having a good flow of information and relationship with each child, need to remember that they need to set the example of the way they hope that child will become, and that works with everything else, that works with religion and diet and all kinds of things.

Sandra Dodd: 24:44

If you live your life in the way that you believe is right, but in a gentle way, not in a judgmental, mean way, then you'll be modeling generosity and compassion and open-mindedness and joy and humor. And when the child is used to living in that flow of positivity, it'll be easier for them to make more positive choices on their own and it'll be easier for them to prefer to be around positive people because that's what they're used to. That seems right and normal and good. I've seen that a lot of times. Whereas if the parents are cynical and sarcastic and negative and judgmental, then the kids might as well be with other people who are like that too. It's not as good a soil for them to grow in it's a bad soil to live in.

Cecilie Conrad: 25:33

Also, we talk a lot about growing, because we're talking on schooling, it makes sense, but I mean life stretches beyond graduation, right? I mean we risk that they take it for granted that you have to criticize and focus on negativity and or maybe even rebel just for the sake of rebelling, and you live this life on the edge and in conflict and criticism. Is that really the life you want? Is that the vibe you want? It can be hard to unlearn these habits of how things unfold, and I think you're actually getting to the other point of relations that I was thinking about. Doing what when we decided to do this episode? Social life is really complicated and complex both words. Social life is also at the same time, it flows through everything we do in life almost, and it's really important for our thriving. Excuse me, it's if we can't figure out our relations in this life, if it's always taking energy away from us rather than giving, if we always are at a point of a little bit of conflict, a little bit of doubt. A little bit of conflict, a little bit of doubt, a little bit of insecurity, a little bit of criticism, a little bit of pushing to improve things. All of this instead of flowing through trustful, loving, respectful, inspiring relations. Life is quite a bit harder than it needs to be in the social life, the healthy version of social life. Social life is quite a bit harder than it needs to be In the social life, the healthy version of social life.

Cecilie Conrad: 27:22

Social life is what carries us through life. When you're in real trouble emotional or practical trouble most of us will know who to call. We know who we need to talk to right now, who can help me, and this is because we've grown and built healthy, strong, trusting, great relations with people around us, with our family, with our extended family, with our friends, with our work colleagues. We need each other more than we can, even more than I can fully understand.

Cecilie Conrad: 28:00

So if my job as a mom is to take this newborn and bring this person into a 20 year old ready for more independence, one of the things that's really needed is that this person can figure out relationships, can figure out how to handle him or herself with other people and working on that as a centerpiece, with my relation with them, showing them how we unfold this, that it's trust, that you're loved.

Cecilie Conrad: 29:04

We've had the unconditional love conversation on the self-directed podcast with Sue and that, even when I disagree with you. I still love you, even with when I disagree with you. You can find someone who agrees with you and you can explore that idea that I can't take it any further. I don't, I and I love you anyway. There can be more people in your life. So I think working on the relation, making sure our relation with our children is flowing and also has a meta stage that we can talk about relations is also a way to set them up for a way better life when they venture off or when they take more in on their own shoulders I don't even know how to put that.

Sandra Dodd: 29:55

Howard Gardner says that interpersonal intelligence is something some people have a lot of and some people have very little of. So if a parent knows that a child has a lot of that, then they're just at the polishing point, like tweaking, making it a little better. If the kid wants help, like, ah, this was awkward, I said this and it didn't go well, what would you have done? Or what could I do next time? Sometimes there are conversations like that. Sometimes, if a kid doesn't have a lot of that interpersonal intelligence, it comes down to remembering well, introduce yourself, smile, say you're glad that they invited you, you know, like coaching at the basic end of it, but being their partner, you would know what they need. At which point are they needing assistance? If any, maybe not any. At which point are they needing?

Cecilie Conrad: 30:47

assistance. If any, maybe not any. We have too many things on the plate right now, so we don't know how to continue.

Sandra Dodd: 30:52

Well, I have another story.

Sandra Dodd: 30:53

Then, when I was younger because I'm the oldest one here the way it was phrased, where I lived anyway, was the idea that if a family was unhappy, if a kid was unhappy, she might go meet somebody at the bowling alley and run away with him, bowling alley just being the main example for a place where rougher people might go and there might be beer and cigarettes and who knows who, and it's dark, and so that people would use that to justify not letting their kids out at night.

Sandra Dodd: 31:26

And then, when unschooling came along, we're talking and the kids are getting older. I just said, if your house is happy enough and peaceful enough and you're not forcing them to do a bunch of stuff and you're not forcing them, you're not limiting them severely why would they want to go run away with a stranger? Why would they want to go run away with a stranger? And so if you think of it that way, it's like what would make running off with a stranger one night during the week seem safer, better, attractive? So don't do all those things. Figure out what it takes to make a family unhappy enough or too much pressure on a kid, and then don't do all those things.

Sue Elvis: 32:03

I remember writing a blog post about not making rules for teenagers. After seeing a lot of things online about keeping teenagers safe and all the rules you would have to make to keep them safe, and I was began to think but what if our kids don't want to do all those things anyway? What's the point of making rules? So I went to my teenagers at the time and I said what should I say if you say you want to go to this party somewhere that drugs may be something that I wouldn't approve of or I would be worried about them going to? What would I say if they said they were going to leave home? And they had all these scenarios and they just looked at me, rolled their eyes and said Mom, do you really think that we are going to do any of those things? And they said no other. Maybe parents think the worst, maybe some teenagers do that, but none of my kids did and didn't want to do all that, and so I think it's not inevitable that our kids will want to run away with other people and go to these dangerous places to escape our homes. So I like what you just said there, Sandra, about that. Work your way backwards. What was it about our family that didn't give my kids that impetus to rebel Because that's, I think, a lot of it it and to go and want to do all these things which weren't good for them.

Sue Elvis: 33:52

I think that we talk about values and kids have to make up their own values and own beliefs, but there are certain things that we do want for our kids. I think we want to keep them safe, we want them to be healthy, we want them to respect property. Maybe that's a good one for those standing on the rocks or standing on the dinosaurs. It's not respectful to other people's. I don't know who owned the rocks, but someone had said that the dinosaurs may be in the museum, the exhibition. It wasn't respectful. We have to respect other people. We want our kids to tell the truth, we want them to be kind. So there are certain values that I think we want to pass on to our children and we can't just leave everything and say, well, you work it all out for yourself. And I like what you said, Sandra, about we have to do whatever we want our kids to do, be examples.

Sue Elvis: 34:53

And then I was thinking about maybe we have strong beliefs about something which influences the way we live our lives, but our children are free to adopt that or reject it, but it doesn't stop us having the right to live our lives that way and our kids live within that family, living that lifestyle, Because if it wasn't important to us, we can't sort of what's that word? Compartments, you know, divide it all off. And this is my little bit here, that I believe this and this is this and this is this. Your strong beliefs will flow over to all aspects of your lives and our kids will live within that. They might question it and they're allowed to question it, but I don't think that stops us having we can't.

Sue Elvis: 35:50

Some people I was reading online were saying, well, you can't do anything that will influence your children. Your children come to you and say, Mum, what do you believe? And you say, well, go and look up Google and you find out for yourself. And I think that if we don't answer our kids' questions and if we don't give them an example of the way we live our lives, they're going to go somewhere else to search for that and ask other people the questions.

Sue Elvis: 37:01

And I always think that if something is important to us, it should be visible, and if it's not visible, then our kids won't see it and they won't think it's important. It might not be important for them, but I think it's important that they see that something is important to us and then they might question it why is that important to you, mum? And then we might talk about it. But I think it wouldn't look very. If something is important to us and we hide it, then we're giving the message to our kids that's not very important. I don't really believe that, or it's not that important to me. I just think that the deciding factor is allowing our children to question and to discuss within that framework and to make their own minds up.

Cecilie Conrad: 37:51

But they, we all yeah, I'm getting lost here now you're in a good place and you just it's the same thing again. We're having the buffet is very big, we're talking about a lot of things at the same time and it's good. It's good stuff. It's good stuff.

Sue Elvis: 38:07

We need to talk about it because even if you decide you know I've read a few articles like this online you decide that you're not going to restrict your children in any way or give them any values they can make up their minds about everything, you're still teaching them something, because it's impossible to influence children. For example, I had read this article and I'm sure there's lots of them around where these parents said they weren't going to influence their children in any way. If they didn't want to brush their teeth, they didn't have to brush their teeth. If they didn't want to wash, they didn't have to wash. If they didn't want to brush their teeth, they didn't have to brush their teeth. If they didn't want to wash, they didn't have to wash. If they didn't want to brush their hair, they didn't have to brush their hair. They could eat whatever they liked.

Sue Elvis: 38:53

And I think we talked about this once before, cecilia on the self-directed podcast. I was thinking well, what are those parents actually teaching their children, or what are they passing on? Because kids will pick up stuff whether you want to influence them or not, and I think they'll. The kids will pick up. It's okay for me to do whatever I like, regardless of other people, regardless of the fact I'll smell, regardless of the fact that, all the consequences of making your own choices and what you were saying, sandra, I think you said it at the end of the last episode about freedom. We're not really free to do whatever we like because we live within this society and you said earlier today if I haven't got the right quote here or I have my right note but we help our children. I think, if you can correct me if this is wrong, that we're partners within for our children so they learn social skills, so that they can have live within our societies. We have to help them there. Could you elaborate on that, sandra? Have I got that? Have I misquoted?

Sandra Dodd: 40:10

you there.

Sandra Dodd: 40:13

I think the idea that you shouldn't influence children at all is crazy. I mean there's no integrity in that. There's no responsibility in that for the parents. They're not helping them. I mean, if Kirby said, do I believe in Adam and Eve or do I believe in evolution? I could have said none of your damn business. You know it doesn't make sense. Why would I reject that conversation? Why would I reject communicating with someone that I'm trying to help? It makes no sense to me.

Sandra Dodd: 40:40

It's another one of those kinds of things that in unschooling discussions people have to spend a lot of time and energy refuting and canceling out, trying to weed that out. There's so much irresponsible information about unschooling and about parenting in a different way because so many people are so black and white they think, oh, we're not going to do any of this stuff. We're not, we don't have to do all this school stuff. So then they go wham and we're not going to do any of this stuff, we don't have to do all this school stuff. So then they go wham and we're not going to do anything that looks or smells like school.

Sandra Dodd: 41:10

Once in a conversation I talked about critical thought. I said when you read something about parenting or unschooling or anything. See if it makes sense. You know, look at it. Why is the person saying this? What is it good for? Is it harmful? You know all of that. Be analytical. And somebody said I didn't come to this group for information like that, you know, for advice like that Sounds very schoolish.

Sandra Dodd: 41:30

When I was in school they talked about critical thought Like, oh my gosh, when you were in school they told you to wash your hands after you went to the toilet too. So you're going to reject that, you know. So the idea of the world being so polarized that you have to be far to one end or far to the other end and there's no middle is a dangerous stance, it's a dangerous thought and it's not very high-level thinking. So, helping our kids.

Sandra Dodd: 41:55

See, there are lots of, not even just two ends. There are dozens of ideas that you could understand why some people live like that or act like that or whatever. But how will you, at your age, in this town, in this state, in this country, decide how to be? Because what they're deciding is what will I do and why? And that's why I really like to talk about decision-making and choices more than about freedom. Because if you say, oh, you have the freedom to do whatever you want. It's never true in the first place and it doesn't aim toward what they are going to do in the next few seconds or minutes or hours or days, which is gather the information that they can and make a decision.

Cecilie Conrad: 42:41

I think also, there is a problem, several problems. So one is are we at a point where we are influencing and controlling our children because we want to pass on the decisions that we've made in life, the strategies, rules, religion, lifestyle choices, and control that they become mini versions of us and control that they become mini versions of us? Or do we think that's wrong? And then we run to the other end of the lane and have the no rules and I'm not going to influence them fake idea about how to do it, which was one of the ways that I was pushed. Well, I let myself be. I decided I'm not an unschooler because I got so annoyed with that point of view that I was not allowed to have an opinion, I was not allowed to have a personality. I'm like, hey, wait a minute. I'm here and this brings me to a point because I feel like we've been talking about how to help our children make good choices, have critical thinking, good choices, have critical thinking. In my experience, this whole question everything, partnership, lifestyle it's not just about me getting to in the context, help my children make good choices, it's actually also me learning so when I, we just we were in the teenage teenagers venturing off on their own, keeping them safe theme before, which is highly relevant for me right now. I learned so much from my teenagers. When I have a worry or as now we are in new situations on so many levels with them and their exploration of what a young person's life in a big city can be, I ask them can we have a conversation about safety? What do you feel? And I know that they know things I don't know, and they know that I know things they don't know and then we have a conversation about what does safety mean? What are we keeping you safe from? How do we make sure that you're all right? Can we have a conversation about drugs? Let's say that was a thing. In my case, it's not really a problem, but we can still have a conversation about it, as they are being offered to buy drugs on almost a daily level where we live right now. I'm not afraid they're going to say yes, but we are in a very rough context in many ways and I think that asking this question can we have a conversation about this? How does this look to you? What are the risks, what's the situation, what do we need to get from this, where do we stand and what are the options? What are your needs? So also, you said before, sue, we want them to be kind and respectful.

Cecilie Conrad: 45:36

I've had a few of these conversations with my kids about being kind and other or in the same matrix, about being respectful, and sometimes they dispute me. They're like I don't want to bend over and be kind right now. I think I need to stand my ground. I think I need to be mean at least a little bit. I need to talk back to this and say, hey, wait a minute, you're pushing me too hard, don't do that. And actually they're right. If they sometimes are not kind for good reason, they protect themselves and they protect the community. Of how much friendly banter can we have before it stops being friendly? So my rule you always have to be kind.

Cecilie Conrad: 46:18

It's just this fluffy unicorn rainbow life. It's not real unicorn rainbow life. It's not real. And what I'm trying to say? I'm rambling, sorry, it's just.

Cecilie Conrad: 46:29

I grow from these things. It's not like I'm this source of wisdom and knowledge and I just am tapped in and know everything perfectly and then I can pass it on, if I am allowed, with this technique of a good relation and partnership with my children, I'm exploring what this life is with them and I'm learning a lot about my own core values and sometimes I need to move my pieces around because I understand something I didn't understand before. I had that conversation with my children. It needs to be a leveled conversation. It needs to be a partnership, a real partnership. I'm not the boss here, I'm not necessarily w here, I'm not necessarily wiser in the context. Sometimes my children often, maybe always they know a lot of things I don't know about what's going on. So keeping them safe and happy and on track with things can never be about rules. It has to be about exploring the context and exploring the options and exploring ideas and just find the best choices to make right here, right now.

Sandra Dodd: 47:38

I have very for a very long time, even before I was involved in unschooling, been. I used to advise people in another group medieval studies group and there was a lot of talk in that group about virtue and being a good person and being a helpful person in service and things like that. So I had already come up with an idea that it's better to go by principles than rules. You can't make a rule that you have to be sweet and happy all the time, but if you're working on the principle of safety and respect, say so. You can talk to your kids about how I'm worried at night if you're not here and I don't know exactly where you are and who you're with, that makes me really nervous. I'm afraid you're not safe. Let's make a plan when that same person is used to that like okay, we, whoever we are in that situation, should try to look after the safety of everyone in that group. Let's make safer choices. You know, not go crazy and not do dangerous, crazy things with drugs and alcohol. If that same idea of safety comes up against someone giving bad advice or trying to command them to do this or that or pressure them and that doesn't seem safe for whatever reason emotionally safe, physically safe they will have that idea. Not that there's a rule about how to talk to adults or whatever it might be, but people should be safe. People should help other people be safe. And so sometimes the brave kid will say to the I don't know how, I don't know how to summarize this into one word for what kind of adult it would be? The problematic adult? Maybe it's not, maybe they're not the one who's in danger. Maybe this person is encouraging kids to live a wilder life, and then someone who's brave enough can say that may not be good advice or something to stand up to someone in a way that protects a principle like safety or respect or courtesy or something. It's not a rule, it's a way to look at the world. This is slightly related to several things, but maybe I'm about to be the problematic adult in this situation, as my kids got old enough to have sex.

Sandra Dodd: 49:48

They were getting around the age where I knew maybe some of their friends were, or it seemed that they were in a situation that could be dangerous. I mean, I'll just say right now, many cultures and religions have found that it does not work to tell kids do not have sex before you're married. I mean you can say those words, but it has never yet in the history of mankind worked really well. It's no guarantee and so anyway. So they were going to camping events or they were going to late night parties or spending the night with other kids in some situation or other, going to conventions or things. So they're going to be away from home overnight with other people their age.

Sandra Dodd: 50:28

I started giving them little strips of three condoms and I would say put this in your med kit, you know, put this in your backpack, and at first, when they're 15 or whatever, and they didn't need it yet they're going. Mom, I don't need this. I said, yeah, but you might have a friend who does. There may be a situation where someone needs one, that's all. I wasn't going to blah, blah, blah, talk to them. It's just like put this with your stuff just in case. And so finally, somebody was talking to me about that being critical or something. I don't remember some other parent, and I said I don't want the first time my kid uses a condom to be the second time he needed one. I just said that to defend myself, but it seemed pretty profound.

Cecilie Conrad: 51:11

That's such a wise way to say it, Sandra.

Sandra Dodd: 51:16

So that was I enabling them to have sex. I wasn't trying to encourage them to have sex, I was trying to help them be safe, and not just them. There are other people to be safe, strangers who say does anybody have a condom? I do, I don't care who. There's a little safety factor involved. I would say if kids are ever going to fool around but they do, sometimes they do, and it's very rarely planned in advance. It just kind of evolves in the hour or two. That's how humans are.

Cecilie Conrad: 51:54

Let's explore this. Obviously, we don't want our children to have real trauma. We don't want them to be physically harmed and we don't want them to disappear or anything crazy like that. But so there is a safety issue and I'm not caring about that. I care about it a lot. I've been very worried and I got over it.

Cecilie Conrad: 52:17

But these things alcohol, drugs, sexual life what else could we be afraid of? Maybe crimes, smaller crimes like damaging property, something like that, all these things that would be on that list of risk that parents for teenagers have in their minds. You just use the word fool around, which is a kind way to talk about. I'm just thinking how foolish really is it, how dangerous really is it. I'm not condoning and I'm not condoning. I'm like you know what I did when I was 15? I'm in a pretty good place exploring. What are we really afraid of? Are we afraid our kids? Let's take the sexual part. Are we afraid our kids explore their sexual life, their bodies, their needs, their love, their whole thing? Are we afraid that hurts? Are we afraid that's complicated? Are we afraid that will take a lot of mental energy? Are we afraid they will regret something? Yes, maybe we are, but that's how it goes for most people Wait, wait.

Sandra Dodd: 53:33

I'm concerned about pregnancy or disease.

Cecilie Conrad: 53:35

Exactly so. That's what I'm getting at. There is only very few things that are really dangerous here. So if we make rules and protections and shields and stuff to try to keep our kids out of harm's way, where the harm is only a detail that we need to talk about don't get pregnant that's just not fun.

Sandra Dodd: 53:54

If you're 15, you know it really isn't and the diseases are there was a girl that my kids knew from a Pokemon tournaments whenever that would have been I'm trying to figure out an age to early two thousands, I guess 19, late 1990s, and it was before 1998, because we were at this house, the house I'm in now. No, we weren't. I don't know when it was, it wasn't, it was in the two thousands. So they, it was a bunch of teenage boys who were going to these card playing, you know Pokemon game tournaments, and so she was at this same tournament and after I would pick kids up, she wanted to go with us one day and they were going to go over to our house and play video games. And I went to her dad's house. I had drawn out, written out a piece of paper to give him that had my name, my address, my phone number and where we lived. Because I figure, why is a dad going to let a teenage girl go with a bunch of boys she doesn't know? So I asked her if I should come to the door and she said, oh, I don't think you need to. And I said, well, give your dad this. And I did end up going to the door because she didn't come back and one of the kids was with her, and I went to see what was going on. The dad didn't really want her to go because he wanted her to stay there and babysit two kids, because he was sitting on the couch drinking beer and watching sports, so. But I talked to him and I said and we'll bring her back, and here's where I live, you know. I made sure he knew what the paper was there, and he said well, fine, you know, like, just like what, if you're going to go, just go. So the thing with her wasn't good with the dad, and so she came over and she was nice enough. They played video games. Nothing much else happened.

Sandra Dodd: 55:40

After she was gone, though, either later that day or another day, I was talking to four of the boys, two of my boys and two other boys that I knew very well and I said I'll call her Sally. That was not her name. I said Sally's in a situation where it would be an advantage to her to have a reason to leave her dad. There was no mom. It was just that dad, these two little kids and her, and she was no mom. It was just that dad, these two little kids and her, and she was a teenager, and so the dad was depending on her too much to take care of kids and he wasn't like he didn't even look at my name and phone number when I introduced myself. He didn't even say his name. So it's like he doesn't care. He'd rather she didn't go and she's going, he's mad. So I said anyway, you guys, be careful, because if you may end up being a bad dad without having wanted to be, without ever having had any choice in it, because she may never let you see that child and that child will grow up not knowing who his dad is, and be careful of situations like that where someone is in a dark, desperate situation and they would like an escape.

Sandra Dodd: 56:48

One of the boys did before too long, I will say the American euphemism fooled around with her. I don't know how much, but they had some private touchy I don't know how far. It seemed important to me to tell them because, in the same way that I was trying to make their life happy and peaceful so that they weren't desperate to leave, it's worth pointing out sometimes, when you see a desperate to leave situation, not enough, I wasn't trying to leave. It's worth pointing out sometimes, when you see a desperate to leave situation. I wasn't trying to insult her. I wasn't trying to insult her dad. I just said it's harsh there, so she will want out. It's hard and that was something I knew more about than they did. They might've known more about her and her dad, but I knew more about the principle of winding a kid up so much, so much, making it so difficult and so frustrating, that they start looking around and leaving with some guy sounds good, I didn't want it to be my guys.

Cecilie Conrad: 57:44

But this is an exact example of contextual advice rather than rules yeah, of contextual advice rather than rules. This is an exact example of a relation-based, trustful path for the teenagers to take. You get to say these things without your teenagers closing their eyes and holding their hands over their ears because it's too cringe or too strange, or even you're not even in on it. I mean you had this going on, as I understood the story, in your house. You were there. I mean you were the one to invite the teens. Lots of teens venture off and do things. We don't know where they are and what they're doing exactly, or they tell us one thing, they do another thing, and it might not even be real, real lying. It could just be spontaneous new choices happening in the middle of the night in the group where they have no control, or they have some control, but I mean group choices are not one person's control and then we don't know what's going on and we're not there to see where the risks are or to give proper advice or to slip that condom if needed or all these things. So I think if we just make all the strict rules and try to keep them safe in a fairy tale world, then basically we're going to lose it at some point. They are going to venture off with no experience in. In, you know, addressing the situation, thinking about, there's the risk question, but there's also the ethical question.

Cecilie Conrad: 59:18

In the story you just shared, sandra, maybe someone could sit down, talk with that girl. Do you need help? How do you feel? Is there a way we can be a solution for you if your life is not good? All these things, all these ways of navigating social life and navigating moving from childhood into adult life, where there are choices around your romantic life, your sexual life, how much do you know?

Cecilie Conrad: 59:47

What's your relation with alcohol? What's your relation with legal drugs and illegal drugs? What's your relation with alcohol? What's your relation with legal drugs and illegal drugs? What's your relation? Will you stay up all night? Is it worth it for you to spend money on music rather than drinks? Or I mean, there are loads of choices to make and loads of things to experience. It's a fine-tuning time for them and if we didn't build, over the years that came before teenage life, solid relationship with them, trustful and based on unconditional love, where they know they are safe when they explore things we might disagree with or we might be afraid of, but then we have no cards on our hands to play the game. They will not refer back to us, we will not know what's going on. We will not have the opportunity to help them. If they need help, they will turn to others for help, or they might just not get the help they need to make good choices for help or they might just not get the help they need to make good choices.

Sandra Dodd: 1:00:56

One of the most dangerous things that parents have done that you know, we've probably all of us seen some is to say if you're late, you're in trouble. If you drink, you're in trouble. If you do anything like that, when you get home you'll be punished. It makes kids lie, it makes kids sneaky. If they really are in a situation where they're in the wrong place with the wrong people and they're drunk, you'd be the last person they'd call. So live your life so that they'd be the first person that you call.

Sandra Dodd: 1:01:22

If, for some reason, a kid just you know, like some guy and goes off with him, you know in a different place than she was supposed to be and there's alcohol and she's getting drunk, she should be so, so eager to call home and say come get me. And the parents should very sweetly go get her and not make a big deal about it. You know, buy her some food on the way home. Cheer, you know, be all cheery and happy, you, okay, do you need anything? Good night Instead of well, we told, told you, man or man. None of that stuff will help. A rescue is a rescue. It's not an invitation to come and shame and blame people. This is getting too harsh, too sad I think it is, I think we're.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:02:03

I mean it's just because these things they are a little hard to talk about. How much can we really share? And who are we pissing off? And is it? Does it sound too easy? You just said before, sue, that your teenager said but mom, we would. I mean, why are we having this conversation? It's not relevant, we would never do that. And another note about the context where my kids are right now, because it sounds like it's too rough, but actually it's not. It sounds like it's irresponsible, but actually we've totally got this. And I think maybe if I was a new listener and I had maybe a two-year-old on my lap, and that's what I'm thinking about people whose kids are young, like wait a minute.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:02:50

that's minute, that's not how my teenager is.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:02:54

I totally understand that and that's why I want and it could be annoying also for those who have older children and think, yeah, it's so easy for you to say that because your teens apparently would never do that. They just sit there around, they read Shakespeare all the time. But I mean my teenagers out of control, you know, and some teenagers venture into more things, more they explore things at an earlier age. They do things that are really, you know, really have to. I learned yesterday that in English you don't say you swallow camels, in danish we say swallow camels and I I'm speaking english with my friends here in budapest and I sometimes translate our idioms and how is it used?

Cecilie Conrad: 1:03:43

swallowing a camel so if you have to swallow a camel, that's when you know you have to cope with something that's really hard for you to cope with. I have to swallow a camel now. Sometimes you have to swallow several camels. Am I explaining it?

Sandra Dodd: 1:03:59

Yeah, I understand that. I don't think we have a phrase like that.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:04:03

No, I learned that when I was trying to explain something yesterday in a group.

Sandra Dodd: 1:04:07

Oh, Americans have that used to have I don't hear it among young people but that you had to eat crow. But that means you. You got caught being really wrong, like you expressed a strong opinion and then it was wrong and then you're ashamed. You have to, like, suck it up, you have to eat crow. I don't know where that came from if one of my kids were to have a facial tattoo, for example.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:04:30

That would be I would have to swallow a to have a facial tattoo, for example. That would be I would have to swallow a camel to sit with that.

Sandra Dodd: 1:04:34

You know, that would be wow, okay do you know a phrase in english, sue? Do you know of one like that?

Sue Elvis: 1:04:40

like I don't know I know one that rolls off of my memory easily now you've got one english language, you can just pick the swallow camels thing.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:04:50

It's beautiful. How do you swallow a camel and how do you face it? Sometimes you have to, even being vegetarian, because it's.

Sue Elvis: 1:04:57

I might adopt that one, but I think Cassandra's one is also very appropriate. What did you say? Eating crow? It's not the same, though sorry, it's not the same.

Sandra Dodd: 1:05:09

It's not, it doesn't mean it means something.

Sue Elvis: 1:05:11

Different situation, yeah, yeah, but I think it's more appropriate to what I was thinking about as you were talking, and I think that it's very dangerous for parents to say my kids will never do this, like the article I was writing at the time. My teenagers said we wouldn't do that, mom. And then I think it's very dangerous to sit back and think, wow, I've done such a great job here, but I have safe proofed my children and they're always going to do things that I approve of or what I believe is right. And though that was very true at that particular point in time, I think it's very dangerous to assume and get self-satisfied with yourself thinking right, I did it, I got perfect kids, because we never know what will happen ahead of time, but I didn't mean that I had to make rules at that particular or I didn't have to make rules anyway. That I had to make rules at that particular. Well, I didn't have to make rules anyway, but at that particular moment in time, it was laughable that I would make a rule about any of these things because my kids weren't interested. But I also knew at that time, knowing our kids and I think that's a good thing. We thing when we're connected with our kids, we do know our kids. Well, I don't think we know them as well as we sometimes think we do, but we listen to them, we have discussions.

Sue Elvis: 1:06:48

I knew that when I wrote that article the responses my kids were going to give me and it was a fun article to write but I've learned that you never, ever, as a parent, say that will never happen to me or my children. For example, years and years ago I had this discussion with somebody about, oh, this person, her son, had gone out and got all these tattoos. It wouldn't happen to our children. But of course, my son's got lots of tattoos and I don't see anything wrong with a tattoo. That's irrelevant, it's his choice. But the point I'm making was you don't know what will happen with your children. They have their, as you said, cecilia, they're people in their own right. They have their own lives to live. They'll become the people that they're meant to be, not the people we think they should be.

Sue Elvis: 1:07:40

And I like what you're saying, sandra, about we support our children. We don't go and say, look, how could you have done that, or that was a stupid thing to do. We were the rescue, and I think that's another point that when I was thinking that, when I said that, how could you have done that? That sometimes we get more concerned about what other people around us are thinking about our parenting, and so that's how we react to our children.

Sue Elvis: 1:08:12

You're a bad reflection on our family, maybe, but you're a bad reflection on my parenting, and we don't actually sit down and try and find out why is there a problem that our children are trying to cope with? If they've done something, where are they? How are they feeling? And we can go in with our boots on and just say how could you have done that? What will people think? You're supposed to be a reflection of our family, and I think that complicates things when we're dealing with. That's not a good way to have a relationship with our children to to base everything they do. They have to do certain things so that we look good as parents, and I'm the parent of all these teenagers who would never go to a wild party If they did. How could you have done that? Now Everybody's going to read that blog post and that's a bad reflection on me as a mother. I'll never be able to show my face online again. Yeah, instead of get over that right.

Sue Elvis: 1:09:17

We need to work of course that was a joke. That was a joke, I hear what you're saying.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:09:21

I hear that you're also saying that. I'm just saying before I talked about how I learned a lot from having these conversations with my children where I say, can we, we explore this for a while and I might have an opinion or feel of the situation in the beginning of the conversation. It will certainly be different at the end of the conversation and in the same way I think, well, our children do, the way they carry through in life is it does reflect back on who we were and how we handled it. But if my ego energy need to have some sort of version, weird version, of perfect children, well, maybe I need to do some inner work. I also think that was where the swallow camels phrasing came out before that.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:10:03

You know, my kids wouldn't be imperfect if they were different from what they are right now. Be imperfect if they were different from what they are right now If they were. They have varying degrees of teenage wildness, if that's a way to say it exploring and partying and all these things, and I'm not preferring the more calmer ones to the quote unquote wilder ones. I'm pretty sure that they do the things, they explore their life the way they need to explore it and I also feel safe that we can have the conversations about the little things that we might actually have to think about and their choices. I might not always totally agree with the way they do things. Sometimes I would like to and I do give them advice and say I think you should modify this a little bit. I think it would be better for you and for your group of friends. And then they push back at me and say thank you for your opinion.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:11:07

The same way that we're not our child's only teacher.

Sandra Dodd: 1:11:10

We're also not our child's only relationship. They have relationships with their friends, not with every person they meet, but with those that they hang out with quite a bit. They have a relationship and that person becomes an influence too, which is not crazy, it's not unreasonable. I think it's a human instinct to want to say don't make our team look bad when you're being somebody's partner, and sometimes people extend that to their religion or where they live. Don't make people from New Mexico look stupid. Don't make Mormons look stupid, whatever it might be. You need to set a good example so everyone will want to be part of our religion or our club or our unschooling life. It's too much pressure and it's unreasonable, but I think it's instinctive, I think it's old, it's ancient in people, and so it's something if you've decided it can be harmful that you have to be careful to guard against. Maybe Sorry.

Sandra Dodd: 1:12:08

No, let's go ahead. I was going to change the subject.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:12:10

I just think it's one more conversation that starts with the headline. Can we explore this for a little bit? Yeah, because I think I do that with my children. Like OK, so we're unschoolers and people know that, we blog about it and we podcast about it, and it's pretty obvious that you're not in school. So we're unschoolers, which means we are representatives, advocates of unschooling life. How do we want to present that, are we sure?

Cecilie Conrad: 1:12:40

I'm not saying that we have to influence the whole world with a fairytale picture of what unschooling life is and that we all the time have to be aware that we are representing unschooling when we are moving around in the world. On the other hand, I also think we have to beware that there are some eyes looking at us with a specific well from looking for some specifics, and maybe we should think about how what we say and do about our educational journey and our lifestyle reflects back on not just us, but those who live like us, just like, let's say, we're Danish and the way we talk about our country. Is it fair, is it right, is it true, is it helpful? I think it's good to have the conversations. I think it's good to have the conversations. We also live in a van and you know how do we want people around us to perceive us people we know and people we don't know. I'm not saying that it's all a social theater all the time, but I do say that I think this conversation, how does this reflect back on the lifestyle, the minority, the culture, the language, the country and the family? It's all right, because we do have these, I also. I mean, we navigate social life by making quick judgments and we're smart if we know it's quick judgments and we move on from there when we acquire more information.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:14:09

But we all have to be able to make quick choices. If we meet someone in an alleyway in a maybe not perfectly safe city somewhere on the planet, we need to be able to assess is this just a nice elderly lady who actually need you to come grab her arm and help her carry the groceries? She's just really late because whatever. Or is this a big buff guy that smells of something and has too many facial tattoos so we need to get out of here? That's a quick assessment. That guy might be a really nice guy and that lady might be really mean. We don't know. But we have to make quick assessments, we have to make quick choices, and people looking at us also need to make quick judgments.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:14:54

So I think being aware of how we carry ourselves and what we present when we present ourselves and how that reflects back on whatever it could reflect back on, it's just one of the many things we need to think about in this life. It's not wrong that the way my children carry themselves in life reflects back on me. It does. It's just not the only thing that defines who I am. I mean, I do tell them to not shout in churches. I mean there are things that are like well, don't do that, we don't do that. We're not the kind of people do that. My son, my oldest I praise him a lot in these podcasts Many years ago it feels like five years ago, when he wasn't that old he made a family rule.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:15:40

He stood his ground. I remember the exact corner somewhere in Barcelona. He stood his ground and said I don't want to be part of a family who keeps doing this. Can we be a family who's doing other? So that was something. Well, the rule that came out of is we don't cancel things if it's less than 24 hours from now. There are too many people involved in us not being able to do what we said we would do. If we say we're there, we're not late, we're not canceling unless it's an emergency, and he was just. I'm not comfortable with this. I don't want to be part of it. Can we modify our lifestyle so we make commitments and we stand up for what we said we would do, and it's just. I just think it's really great and we all had to take it in a moment and say yeah, yeah, okay, you're right.

Sandra Dodd: 1:16:31

When I practiced with my baby and this was before unschooling, because Kirby was five before we even thought about homeschool when I started practicing being his partner and really paying attention to what he needed and what I could do to help him get it, I became a better dog owner. I was nicer to our dog. So I started thinking why is the dog barking? Not for meanness, not to be irritating. Either the dog is afraid that somebody's coming, wants to tell us something, or she's scared, so let's see. So we started taking her to the front door and letting her look out. If she was barking and we say let's go see. And maybe there's somebody walking by on the sidewalk. And we just talk to the dog and go, it's okay, he's not coming here, it's all right. Or there might be a dog out there. And we just like stay here, stay here, it'll be okay. And it kept her from being afraid that she could see what was going on. And then that was good practice for me to help kids do what they needed to in similar situations.

Sandra Dodd: 1:17:34

I became a better wife. I started thinking why am I being judgmental of what my husband's doing in the garage, carving wood or whatever his hobby was in those days, different things, different times. You know he needs to do that. I need to help him do that by not bugging him or taking him a snack or making sure he has some ice water out there or whatever it might be. I became kinder to other people who had concerns or worries or hobbies or they were tired or whatever. I've seen a lot of families where the moms are really pushy about the husband has to do 50%. They're measuring time and stuff and it doesn't help and it's so.

Sandra Dodd: 1:18:14

I started being more compassionate and it was easier for him to be kinder to me and I thought this is really working. This is making me a better person to try to slow down to baby speed, to try to walk with a toddler and let him stop and look at ants or whatever it is. You know, I might have pictured in a half an hour we can get to the park and back and he doesn't want to go to the park, he just wants to see what he sees, and so for me to be calm and accepting about things like that made it easier for me to be calm and accepting in other ways, I'm assuming, I'm guessing, I'm hoping that it made my children feel like other people should be calmer and more accepting, appreciating it when they met it and questioning it when somebody was pushy and trying to drag them along. Not that they're going to say you can't push me and drag me along, you have to act like my mom, because that's not likely to happen. Nobody else is his mom, but you know what I mean it.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:19:11

It changed me it still changes me. I still learn so much from what my children are doing and how. I think I've said this before at the podcast. My husband phrases it we're running while we're learning to crawl it. It happens so fast, things change so fast and we are thrown into all these different contexts and we just have to hold on to our horses and the horses being principles and values, and even those are sometimes challenged, like the kindness one.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:19:51

I just had a pushback on that a few days ago. I can't always be kind. Sometimes I have to say stop, and it's true, but I think it does give us the opportunity to live our best life and to be better versions of ourselves these challenges that we get from the unschooling choice and also it gives our children the option to explore and unfold and figure out what their best life is, and part of that best life is to have good relations and to be able to move through that in mindful ways. Are we back at the question? Everything stop to think refrain. It feels like there's an anchor point there.

Sandra Dodd: 1:20:46

Sue was writing. What do you have, Sue?

Sue Elvis: 1:20:49

Nothing, really, because I missed a bit there. I had to go and see to a dog who was writing. What do you have, sue? Nothing really, because I missed a bit there. I had to go and see to a dog who was barking You're talking about. I came back and I heard that story. You were telling about the dog barking and I thought had you heard my dog barking? I just had to disappear. So I missed a little bit there. So I've been sitting here trying to catch up on the bit. I missed a little bit there. So I've been sitting here trying to catch up on what the bit I missed. I didn't want to dive in case I got the wrong end of the stick of what you were actually talking about.

Sandra Dodd: 1:21:19

Well, that started from me saying that when I slowed down and paid more attention to what my son needed, I became better at paying attention to what my dog needed and what my husband needed.

Sue Elvis: 1:21:28

I became a better person needed and what my husband needed, and I became a better person. Yeah, I think that we all well say all parents have particular we've been talking about. We do have things that we'd like to pass on to our kids. We'd like them to be respectful and kind and loving and truthful, all those type of things, and I used to it. I had a turning point when I realized, instead of trying to tell our children what you should have been more honest or you should have been more respectful, the turning point for me came when I thought it starts with me how am I treating my children and what am I expecting them to do? And sometimes the two things were different and I know it's that saying do what I say and not what I do. But I got that really deeply and then decided something had to change and it wasn't my children, it was me. And then, instead of I started watching what I was saying to my kids in the tone of voice and that flowed through all the family, but it started with me. And then when people say to me well, we're going to one school, we're going to give our kids freedom, and then they say a bit later down the track, oh, it was chaos. The kids did whatever they liked and they're all arguing with each other and they're lazy and they're disrespectful and it didn't work. Unschooling doesn't work and I think if that had been our family at that point, the missing bit was it starts with the parents and all relationships do start with us. That, as you both have been saying, we're different people than we were when we started out and our children have changed us and the unschooling in particular, I, I think, has given me so many gifts. It's not just about our children, it's about me as well.

Sue Elvis: 1:23:39

And, as you've been saying, cecilia, sometimes you stop and you're learning from your children, and that two-way relationship, I think, is very important, that we are learning from each other and the relationships aren't always perfect every day. I think just that we never have any problems, our kids never make any mistakes, that we can say, hey, my kids will never do that. But we're always learning and it's not always us, our children, who are learning from us. It's us that we're always learning and it's not always us, our children, who are learning from us. It's us that we're also learning from our children and hopefully we'll get to those relationships where, as you were saying right at the beginning, cecilia, about we take our relationships out there into the world, don't we?

Sue Elvis: 1:24:26

They're not just within the family. We're giving ourselves and our children skills. Just within the family, we're giving ourselves and our children skills, and we hope that we'll all have good relationships with other people in the world, whether we're working, whether we're helping people, whatever all the people we come into contact with and hopefully, through our listening, our guidance, our acceptance of our children, not jumping on them when they make mistakes, that they will become the type of people and learn the skills they need to have good relationships with people. And I was just thinking there, sandra, that I've got something on my blog that you wrote about helping children with social skills and relationships and, being me, I won't be able to quote it terribly at well, but you said something about if you want your children to and then it was something negative then don't do all these things. Does that ring a bell with you? If you don't want your children to maybe get on in the world and have good relationships, then make sure you do. And then all these things.

Sue Elvis: 1:25:41

Don't listen to them, don't respect them, don't all those don't things, which, of course, are things that we should do listen, accept, discuss. I think that was a big thing there, sandra, that I think sometimes unschoolers miss the guidance part, the part where we listen and talk with each other and have that coffee that Cecilia and I are always talking about, that we pass on thoughts, beliefs, values, opinions, stories, information, going both ways, because we have a good relationship with each other and we sit and listen and chat and we dive into things and discuss things, instead of just saying this is what I want you to believe, this is what is true, this is the way you should be, and that never works, because kids don't understand, kids don't have any, they don't have time to work through it all. All they hear is you're telling me who I have to be and how, the way I have to act, and, and that article you wrote, sandra.

Sue Elvis: 1:26:53

I found that really interesting and helpful.

Sandra Dodd: 1:26:55

How to screw it up. How to screw up unschooling.

Sue Elvis: 1:26:58

That's right, and I felt it was useful to give to other people.

Sandra Dodd: 1:27:02

It's sandracom slash. Screw it up just like. It's one word, all small letters, and it wasn't just my list. We did that in a discussion. Everybody threw in their ideas and I have all of the people's names credited who contributed to that list. It was fun. It was just done like in 15 minutes. And then I have a talk that I gave at a conference once and there's a recording of that on my site. Sometimes just looking at a cartoonish negative example gives you the opposite model.

Sue Elvis: 1:27:35

Because I think a lot of people get afraid of getting involved in their kids' lives because I think they have the wrong idea that unschooling is just we step back as parents and give our kids all the freedom but we don't interact so that we don't pass on anything. That people get scared of passing on things to their children. Yeah, does that make sense? It?

Cecilie Conrad: 1:28:06

makes total sense, and it is a little hard to put in very concise words how we oppose to the idea of controlling and restricting and modeling our children and, on the other hand, we oppose to the idea of the laissez-faire lifestyle of just not caring, not influencing and allowing or letting all that freedom be into what you call chaos. So we're trying to define what's in between that where, and what's in between that, and maybe we should wrap it up with that. What's in between that is the relationship, it is to be the partner, it is to be together in this life, to trust each other in this life, remembering that we are the adults and that gives us a certain responsibility that we cannot impose on our children, not the teenagers either. We are the adults. It's our responsibility to take that position of standing maybe on a bigger rock, a more stable rock, with who we are and how we pass through this life. But if we don't do it in an open-minded way, a way where we can listen to them and where we can change our minds, where we can modify our strategies and our values and we can see them if they need to do what we have, in this conversation sometimes called mistakes, then we are not giving the space for the relation, we're not giving the space for them to trust us and have us on that top five I mentioned before, to trust us to be the solution rather than the problem, and I think that's the point in a nutshell, isn't it?

Cecilie Conrad: 1:29:47

I have on my notes one more thing, but I I think it's getting late, especially in America. We started a bit late. If you want to go, I'm fine. No, I think I also. It was very early for me to get up. When I got up, and it's fine, I was just thinking maybe we should explore next time, or I could just put a little note for the listeners and ourselves to think about this idea of mistakes.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:30:12

We say teenagers make mistakes. Oh, I'm sorry, that's my alarm, because is it really a mistake? There are some things we want to avoid, but some of the mistakes. I was trying to say it and in respect for those who have teenagers that do not sit at home and drink tea and read Shakespeare, but maybe challenge you more, I said swallow camels.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:30:40

I think it's a learning journey and if our teenagers, or children in general, need to explore some behaviors or scenes of life or adventures that seem wild, the point is the same as before. We need to be their best bet. We need to be the ones they can find in, we need to be the safety that you can come back and you've done something or you had some experience. You need to be the safety that you can come back and you've done something or you had some experience. You need to process and you have someone to process it with. And maybe I, on my side of that, need to expand, I need to grow, I need to understand why is this part of your life journey and how can I swallow that camel and be with this in a non-judgmental way?

Sandra Dodd: 1:31:34

So even the quote, sorry can we work that into the discussion of freedom that we were planning for next time?

Cecilie Conrad: 1:31:42

Yes, that could be part of it, because I'm going to end up talking about choices.

Sandra Dodd: 1:31:47

I always jump away from freedom into choices, and it may not be a mistake to have just made a choice that later on you regret. You see the downside. That's just more practice making choices.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:31:57

Well, why don't we wrap this one up? It has been a few hours now and we have freedom as the topic next time, and we can use this as the anchor point.

Sandra Dodd: 1:32:06

Okay.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:32:08

I think it's been a very good conversation. Thank you Good night, good morning. Thank you, cecilia.

Sue Elvis: 1:32:15

Thank you, Sandra.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:32:17

It's been fun.

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